JohnMo Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 29 minutes ago, JamesPa said: MCS registered installer' Still think the equivalent bit,is vague enough to not require MCS installer. That's my interpretation and I will be sticking with it, as many on here have previously done. So will self install, follow guidance within MCS where required and equipment manual where that give specific instructions. Complete a commissioning certificate etc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 What about if it has been installed to, or above those standards? How would they argue against "compliance" eg if it "complies"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: At that price, a heating company would go bust. It's 2023, not 1990. Nick what would you regard as a reasonable figure? Taking on board how little the installation company actually expect to have to do for their £8k in my case. Bearing in mind i am in the home counties so expect a little bit of a premium. Having said that we dont all drive bentleys in Hertfordshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, Post and beam said: Nick what would you regard as a reasonable figure? Taking on board how little the installation company actually expect to have to do for their £8k in my case. Bearing in mind i am in the home counties so expect a little bit of a premium. Having said that we dont all drive bentleys in Hertfordshire. I'd only quote on a job I've seen / been given plans etc for tbh. Telling you what I'd charge here is academic at best. Nice Ferrari btw! If its any use to you, PM me and I'll give you my HP installers contact details. They travel / may offer you a better price, but they're stupid-busy atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 PM sent. Apologies Nick, i would not expect you to quote on a public forum. Thats how it looked though i guess. I really am struggling to accept £8k and the more vague their responses the more distrustful i get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Post and beam said: I have had a bit of a back and forth e mail conversation with the potential installer. They wont budge on their price and dont want to detail all of the little extra's that are required to install. Therefore they stick by their £8k installation. Still looks to me( ignorant of plumbing intricacies) like a lot of money to drop a pump onto the plinth, connect it and commission/instruct me on its best use. in my opinion it is way too high to install! find other companies and get other quotes and don't waste any more time with this company. mine is a long story but, to cut it short, a local company installed my ASHP, UVC, buffer tank. they also wired up the electrics (I'd already run an SWA cable for them), connected my mains water connection to the cylinder, lagged all the pipes, connected it all up to my UFH manifold and got my heating going and will be back to connect the UVC up to my domestic water manifolds. all for under £4k. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 No bother. Just saying its "how long is a bit of string" without seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 If you are thinking a Grant ASHP, go to their website look for an approved installed there. Most Grant installers can do heat pumps, Grant the company hold the MCS certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted February 19, 2023 Author Share Posted February 19, 2023 1 minute ago, JohnMo said: If you are thinking a Grant ASHP, go to their website look for an approved installed there. Most Grant installers can do heat pumps, Grant the company hold the MCS certificate. As it happens i had already probably discounted the Grant after reading opinions on here of their relative lack of sophistication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 hours ago, JohnMo said: Still think the equivalent bit,is vague enough to not require MCS installer. That's my interpretation and I will be sticking with it, as many on here have previously done. So will self install, follow guidance within MCS where required and equipment manual where that give specific instructions. Complete a commissioning certificate etc. If neighbours don't complain you will almost certainly get away with it. But if neighbours complain about noise the first thing the EHO will do is check if you have planning consent. If you haven't then quite likely EHO will issue a noise abatement notice and planning a planning enforcement notice. If it went to court then you would have MCS on the side of the LPA defending their monopoly. Most likely the upshot would be a requirement to be 10dB below background, as that seems to be quite a common demand, albeit a stupid one when background is anyway so quiet that it can't be heard indoors. In many cases it's a risk worth taking. I can't see however that the get out of 'equivalent' would fly unless it's a recognised standard. I wish I could, but I can't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackofAll Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 This side of pond the going rate is 7k install(that includes fitting ufh pipes) every plumber I've asked is not willing to price labour only, they'll supply and fit. I can purchase all stuff up North including MHRV for same price(including exchange rate) as just ASHP, cylinder and uhf kit locally. @Conor be worth my while sourcing a plumber up your neck of the woods if they'd be willing to travel if your price is anything to go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Post and beam said: Having said that we dont all drive bentleys in Hertfordshire I drove though Hertfordshire in a Ford C-Max the other day. Almost got to Tring before it all went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 8 hours ago, JamesPa said: installers can charge what they want, and indeed do what they want. And woe betide you if you question them in any way, have design preferences, however logical, which differ from their rules I have a client installing Loxone and he's come up against exactly this issue with his builders heating engineer. Naturally he wanted to use Loxone to control his heating system but no amount of discussion or logical arguments would sway the heating guy from his ASHP design and installation approach. I offered to explain Loxone control to him and work with him to implement a comprehensive solution for my client but it was the proverbial head and brick wall. Kept insisting that only his designed system could be installed and if any changes were made to controls after install then my client would lose his £5k grant. Worse than that for me is that he intends to use a single room thermostat downstairs to control the UFH heating and upstairs rads will all have manual TRV's.............the guy must be a time traveller as systems like that were being installed 20 years ago!!!! Final comment - I definitely think the MCS monopoly just means installers are fleecing consumers by adding £5k to what they would have quoted pre-BUS. Another example of the government getting it completely wrong! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Rob99 said: Another example of the government getting it completely wrong! Is it just me, or is there a pattern developing there? 🙁 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billt Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 10 hours ago, Rob99 said: I have a client installing Loxone and he's come up against exactly this issue with his builders heating engineer. Naturally he wanted to use Loxone to control his heating system but no amount of discussion or logical arguments would sway the heating guy from his ASHP design and installation approach. I offered to explain Loxone control to him and work with him to implement a comprehensive solution for my client but it was the proverbial head and brick wall. Kept insisting that only his designed system could be installed and if any changes were made to controls after install then my client would lose his £5k grant. Worse than that for me is that he intends to use a single room thermostat downstairs to control the UFH heating and upstairs rads will all have manual TRV's.............the guy must be a time traveller as systems like that were being installed 20 years ago!!!! Afraid my sympathies here are with the installer. They have to follow a path defined by MCS so are limited in terms of design. They will be expected to ensure that the system heats the building effectively (probably why they oversize heat pumps so often) and will have to return to fix things if the system doesn't work as expected. Some random HA system interfacing with a heating system is going to make their life much more difficult (and it probably won't work very well). Using a single zone actually sounds as if he might be designing a reasonably good system. Having spent many hours reading the good info about heat pumps here and elsewhere randomly turning rooms on and off is not a way to operate a heat pump system efficiently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 10 minutes ago, billt said: Having spent many hours reading the good info about heat pumps here and elsewhere randomly turning rooms on and off is not a way to operate a heat pump system efficiently. But that's not the way a TRV operates, at least not a "dumb" one. My understanding is that they are much more analogue than digital so they reduce the flow as they reach their set temperature and open up a bit if they drop below their set temperature. If they keep open just enough to maintain their set temperature then they are doing exactly what a manually throttled radiator would do, maintaining just enough flow to give you the room temperature you want. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 55 minutes ago, billt said: They have to follow a path defined by MCS so are limited in terms of design The classic approach of a Monopoly - completely stifles innovation (jobs for the boys too!!) 57 minutes ago, billt said: Some random HA system interfacing with a heating system is going to make their life much more difficult (and it probably won't work very well). There's nothing random about a Loxone system (just ask all those on here who have one!) and contrary to your generalisation, it works exceptionally well when properly set up. 1 hour ago, billt said: Using a single zone actually sounds as if he might be designing a reasonably good system On the contrary, there are three distinct zones on the ground floor but he's choosing to just install a single room thermostat controller. 1 hour ago, billt said: Having spent many hours reading the good info about heat pumps here and elsewhere randomly turning rooms on and off is not a way to operate a heat pump system efficiently True, randomly turning the heat pump on and off is not a way to operate a heat pump system efficiently, but having sensible configurable control of your room temperatures is an efficient use of that energy, and there's nothing random about it with a comprehensive HA system like Loxone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 19 minutes ago, Rob99 said: The classic approach of a Monopoly Isn't it more a case of a Franchise. Set rules to stick to, but you, or the customer, can still choose to use you, or go to independent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Isn't it more a case of a Franchise. Set rules to stick to, but you, or the customer, can still choose to use you, or go to independent. Except that the customers cant choose to go elsewhere if the install is to be done under permitted development or if they wish to claim a government grant. I can just about support the latter, but the former is absolutely scandalous and a barrier to the greening of our economy. Worse still, MCS themselves have been allowed to write the rules that say that an installation under permitted development must be done by an MCS installer and to MCS standards. Edited February 20, 2023 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Except that the customers cant choose to go elsewhere if the install is to be done under permitted development It only has to comply with the MCS rules from my understanding. There are other rules as well, 1m from boundary, 0.6m³ in volume. 10 minutes ago, JamesPa said: or if they wish to claim a government grant. I Yes, that is true, but it is set up to help installers, not help customers. I think it has been confused with sales terminology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billt Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Rob99 said: The classic approach of a Monopoly - completely stifles innovation (jobs for the boys too!!) There's nothing random about a Loxone system (just ask all those on here who have one!) and contrary to your generalisation, it works exceptionally well when properly set up. On the contrary, there are three distinct zones on the ground floor but he's choosing to just install a single room thermostat controller. True, randomly turning the heat pump on and off is not a way to operate a heat pump system efficiently, but having sensible configurable control of your room temperatures is an efficient use of that energy, and there's nothing random about it with a comprehensive HA system like Loxone. Sorry, but you're client is wanting a £5,000 bung from the government. It is perfectly reasonable for him to abide by the conditions that are imposed if you want the bung. If you want to do your own thing you are perfectly at liberty to do so, just without £5,000 from the rest of us. (If you can afford a Loxone system you're pretty well heeled, so I suspect that £5,000 is neither here nor there.) Yes, I have no doubt that it is possible to set up an HA system to work perfectly well with a heat pump. It is not reasonable to expect an installer, who may only have training on a subset of systems, to cope with a random, bespoke control system when setting up or trouble shooting the system. FWIW, I'm installing my own ASHP, partly because I wouldn't see any benefit from the £5,000, but also because I wanted control over the design of the system. Losing a dubious subsidy like that doesn't bother me, and I can't afford Loxone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: It only has to comply with the MCS rules from my understanding. Not so sadly. The requirement in law is that it must comply with 'the MCS planning standards or equivalent standards'. 'The MCS planning standards are defined in MCS020 which reads as follows: MCS have effectively written themselves into planning law! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 They can go FO. I don't take well to monopolising assholes. Loads on here have self-installed / DIY'd without issue, based on a robust install, quiet operation, considered approach to location / noise pollution, and so on. Most better than these "approved installers" offer up that's for sure. On one 'MCS' job the double height twin-fan Mistsi was alongside the front fecking door. You could hear it 60m away. Total BS. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: The MCS planning standards are defined in MCS020 which reads as follows: Isn't that what MCS (or their agents) has to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Isn't that what MCS (or their agents) has to do. Yes but the point is that this text appears to define 'the MCS planning standards' and thus apply if an installation is to be done under permitted development, thus forcing PD installation to be done by an MCS contractor. Furthermore mis3005 referred to therein requires an installation done by an MCS contractor to be designed according to MCS design rules by an MCS designer. It follows (so far as I can see) to that any installation under permitted development must be done by an MCS installer and designed by an MCS designer. That's great for the MCS fraternity but a gross misuse of a government sanctioned private monopoly, stifles innovation and is bad for the environment. Edited February 20, 2023 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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