A2A DIY Install

[Nickfromwales]

11 hours ago, markocosic said:

Tidy lovely innit.

"Lush"

 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile.....back at the ranch, others were discussing ASHP's 

 

[joth]

Anyone else installing one, note the illustrations and the installation text don't entirely match.

E.g. the text says to install the protective sleeve in the hole cut through the wall, and to wrap the pipe bundle in additional insulation, prior to passing through the (sleeve in the) wall.

The diagrams don't show either those steps, nor does the kit include said sleeve or insulation.

 

So, anyway having noticed this I managed to get mine back off the wall and wrap the pipes. I used self-adhesive foam and then a layer of self-adhesive aluminium foil. The result looks OK enough, and importantly the bundle passed much more smoothly through the wall than it did as separate pipes/wires.

 

 

Next up is mounting the external unit ona wall bracket.

[joth]

Bit more progress today; got the outdoor unit mounted up onto a wall bracket. That was not without some fun as the bracket keyhole slots to screw the unit unto had the large hole in just the wrong places for this fairly slim but nvmd nothing a couple extra large washers couldn't fix. The back of the unit is about 25cm from the wall, not quiet the 30cm the MIs call for but I think it'll be fine for a rarely used device.

 

Hit some snags getting the gas pipeage hooked up though.

1/ the MIs aren't clear what to do with these black plastic on the internal pipe. I assume it is just remove them. There's a lot of gas hissing noise if I do so, so I slapped them back on. I guess they're just charged with some harmless gas to keep dirt out and pressure test. But MIs aren't clear so I'm dithering.

2/ I really don't need the 3m extension coils that came with it, the internal unit is directly inside of the outside unit, so in fact I have 50cm slack in the pipes as it is. However, I now spot the extensions have 2x female threaded connectors, and the pairs of connectors I'm currently trying to mate are all male.

Other than use the supplied extensions (and having to tuck them up neatly and insulate the lot) I think my options are to get a couple appropriate sized F-F equal couplers. Perhaps these?

https://www.airconspares.com/equal-female-flare-connector-1-4-dus4-4

https://www.airconspares.com/equal-female-flare-connector-5-8

 

 

[joth]

16 minutes ago, joth said:

Perhaps these?

https://www.airconspares.com/equal-female-flare-connector-1-4-dus4-4

https://www.airconspares.com/equal-female-flare-connector-5-8

 

Aghhh £8 of parts costs £10 in shipping. 

Free shipping if I order >50quid worth, so now I'm browsing Armaflex for a difference project. FML.

 

[TonyT]

Have a look at Nowty’s thread on the Camelot forum he’s diy fitted 2 of these and documented it really well

[S2D2]

4 hours ago, joth said:

1/ the MIs aren't clear what to do with these black plastic on the internal pipe. I assume it is just remove them. There's a lot of gas hissing noise if I do so, so I slapped them back on. I guess they're just charged with some harmless gas to keep dirt out and pressure test. But MIs aren't clear so I'm dithering.

On 13/03/2023 at 16:02, S2D2 said:

The internal unit is charged, I presume with nitrogen, so once the internal work is complete you can be confident there isn't a leak as there is a release of pressure when the plastic pipe caps are removed

 

Carry on and remove them when you're ready to connect up the pipes.

 

4 hours ago, joth said:

2/ I really don't need the 3m extension coils that came with it, the internal unit is directly inside of the outside unit, so in fact I have 50cm slack in the pipes as it is. However, I now spot the extensions have 2x female threaded connectors, and the pairs of connectors I'm currently trying to mate are all male.

 

On 13/03/2023 at 16:02, S2D2 said:

You have to use the supplied 3m pipe extension even if not required as it has two female ends, converting the internal unit's male end

 

I just attached the extension and coiled the excess behind the unit, the adaptor would be a neater solution though. I presume you would have to release some amount of charge though as it's designed for the length of pipe. Manual tells you how much to add per metre extended, but that sounds too tricky for the opposite (kit required). No idea what the impact of an overcharged system is.

[joth]

Many thanks for the tips! @S2D2

(I also found a 27 page Nowty thread on that other forum but it rambled all over the place and I gave up trying to find anything on this topic) 

 

The coil of spare pipe seemed in elegant but I went with it as path of least resistance. Shoved some misc insulation and neoprene jacket over the numerous joints and exposed pipework.

The air bleed process was simple (if a little unsatisfying as there's no feedback I'd done it right) but firing it up all working well. It sat humming for 10mins before really getting going not sure if it has some initial self test or it'll always do that. 

Now I have WiFi in the room with it, I can try and get the app setup too. 

 

 

[S2D2]

Looks good, it was beyond me why the supplied insulation left a load of exposed pipe, I also slapped some offcuts on to at least cover it but it was performing so well I've never got around to doing anything more significant.

 

Does your front panel of the outdoor unit have any resonance? I'm still meaning to stick a damping panel on mine as it has a tiny bit but again never got back to it, it's tucked round the side of the house so never an issue.

[joth]

2 hours ago, S2D2 said:

Looks good, it was beyond me why the supplied insulation left a load of exposed pipe, I also slapped some offcuts on to at least cover it but it was performing so well I've never got around to doing anything more significant.

 

Yeah oddly it says if the pipe is extended indoors it needs insulating, but nothing about these external parts. I may wrap some wool insulation around the service valves, if I ever open it up again.

 

Also, I figured if it ever needs a R290 recharge I'll remove the unnecessary extension at that point.

 

The external unit as a whole kinda resonates when on full tilt, which transmits through the wall so I do hear it inside. But this is a gym, so the music, whirring bike wheels and swearing should drown that out in normal use.  Nothing specific coming from the front panel of it.

Do you mean like it is rattling?  Any screws loose? 

 

[S2D2]

16 minutes ago, joth said:

Yeah oddly it says if the pipe is extended indoors it needs insulating, but nothing about these external parts. I may wrap some wool insulation around the service valves, if I ever open it up again.

 

Also, I figured if it ever needs a R290 recharge I'll remove the unnecessary extension at that point.

 

The external unit as a whole kinda resonates when on full tilt, which transmits through the wall so I do hear it inside. But this is a gym, so the music, whirring bike wheels and swearing should drown that out in normal use.  Nothing specific coming from the front panel of it.

Do you mean like it is rattling?  Any screws loose? 

 

No specific rattle, just if a hand is placed on the front panel the noise is notably reduced so I was going to stick some rubber on inside or something. I did find a loose screw in the box but none visibly missing, I will check when I open up the front panel but assume it was dropped and replaced.

 

Like yours it's just about audible inside the house in the adjoining room to that wall but far quieter than even the wet central heating so no issues at all from that. I did wonder whether a ground slab and rubber feet would have been better but it's not close to audible enough to make me change anything.

 

Spacing the rubber feet that make contact with the wall out a little so the rubber doesn't contact the bracket and overall levelling the outdoor unit also notably reduced noise.

[S2D2]

For those interested, I took another look at figures and clipped the data to where solar gain overtook heating demand which gives two months worth of data:

1. Modelled gas heating demand for that period was 2662kWh
2. Actual gas consumption was 640kWh
3. The ASHP consumption was 372kWh
4. That means every 1kWh the ASHP consumed offset 5.4kWh of gas
5. This is likely to be accurate/an underestimate as I tried to push the ASHP for maximum gas offset meaning the house was on average 1°C warmer than the regression fit data
6. 76% reduction in gas heating usage from a single multisplit unit
7. Assuming a boiler efficiency of 90%, that gives an estimated CoP of 4.9, though this was in the March-May period so will be more favourable than mid-winter performance. Still, it compares well with the stated SCoP of 4.2
8. Even accounting for "lost export" on Flux's high rates, that means the unit has repaid 20% of its cost in 2 months (~30% of the heating season) - not bad at all

No more data until the next heating period, though I'm interested to test the cooling performance over the summer.

[bikerchris]

Very interesting thread all, thanks to @joth for pointing it out 👍 I might take pics of my new one, may be I should put it in a different thread to avoid a hijack! 

[SteamyTea]

 

 

[bikerchris]

Thank you @SteamyTea 👍 

[HughF]

On 14/02/2023 at 09:52, Bashers said:

I'm not sure they can legally sell you that unit without seeing your F certificate.

 

Throughout the rest of the world you can buy and self install, so it smells a bit like the required MCS install of solar panels and batteries racket i think.

 

Simly hop over to mainland europe and pick up a Easy install DIY unit and bring it back.

They can... they will...

[HughF]

This is running without the extension line set. Just the pipework from the indoor unit, straightened out a bit more, then with the ends re-flared.

 

It doesn’t complain about the reduced length. All mini splits have a reservoir anyway to accommodate variations in line set length.

[HughF]

Appliancesdirect/aircondirect have completely sold out of the r290 based units until early 2024.

 

Midea have an r290 based unit available in Europe but it isn’t available here. It seems that there is some regulatory issue preventing the mass adoption of r290 in the mini split market, which is a shame. They have been popular in china and India since 2013, according to the articles I’ve read.

 

Anyway…. Still plenty of f-gas based ones available, if you fancy diy’ing…

[S2D2]

1 hour ago, HughF said:

Appliancesdirect/aircondirect have completely sold out of the r290 based units until early 2024.

 

Midea have an r290 based unit available in Europe but it isn’t available here. It seems that there is some regulatory issue preventing the mass adoption of r290 in the mini split market, which is a shame. They have been popular in china and India since 2013, according to the articles I’ve read.

 

Anyway…. Still plenty of f-gas based ones available, if you fancy diy’ing…

That's annoying for anyone hoping to get one in for winter, but I guess demand for air con will be high at the moment.

 

I've had it on a couple of times for this in the recent heatwave and it's great at getting the heat out of downstairs, where I have the unit fitted. Not much gets to upstairs because it's positioned for heating and I haven't been running it for very long. It uses more power to cool, around 600W compared to 400W for heating but again not sure if that's because I haven't run it for long.

[HughF]

Back in stock at appliances direct, woohoo

[bikerchris]

2 hours ago, HughF said:

Back in stock at appliances direct, woohoo

Nice, and quicker than the original December stock date! Pity I've already got hold of one, same price though, so not too bad.

[joth]

On 09/06/2023 at 08:26, joth said:

The coil of spare pipe seemed in elegant but I went with it as path of least resistance. Shoved some misc insulation and neoprene jacket over the numerous joints and exposed pipework.

The air bleed process was simple (if a little unsatisfying as there's no feedback I'd done it right) but firing it up all working well. It sat humming for 10mins before really getting going not sure if it has some initial self test or it'll always do that. 

 

So small update - on Saturday (hottest day of the year!) I went to turn on the unit, and it didn't cool down at all. My partner said it wasn't very effective when used a week ago.

I have a horrible feeling I had a leak and all the glorious R290 has escaped. What's the idiots guide to confirming this is the case?

I did do the soapy water leak test at time of install, but it's not foolproof.

 

Probably time I find my local f-gas engineer to come and take a look. (so I know it doesn't *need* the f-gas cert, but seems the easiest way to get someone that should have the knowhow) 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by joth

[HughF]

Bang your manifold on and see if there is any pressure in there... If not, pressure test it with something inert (nitrogen, argon, argoshield), then vac and refill...

r290 is cheap off ebay...

[joth]

On 12/09/2023 at 13:24, joth said:

So small update - on Saturday (hottest day of the year!) I went to turn on the unit, and it didn't cool down at all. My partner said it wasn't very effective when used a week ago.

I have a horrible feeling I had a leak and all the glorious R290 has escaped. What's the idiots guide to confirming this is the case?

I did do the soapy water leak test at time of install, but it's not foolproof.

 

Probably time I find my local f-gas engineer to come and take a look. (so I know it doesn't *need* the f-gas cert, but seems the easiest way to get someone that should have the knowhow) 

 

The story continues.

I contacted two local F-gas companies. First dropped the request moment I uttered R290, second turned up on site anyway, screamed when he saw in ran off and blocked/ghosted all further contact.

Next, I paid an eye-watering deposit to Appliance Direct to have their own service team come one. 2 weeks later they final get back to me to book in a date another week on. Sit waiting here all day (no timeslot given), eventually phone them 20mins on hold they say they'll call me next day. Got the call this morning: the engineer didn't have any R290 on the truck so decided to skip my appointment without letting me know. They've now rescheduled it for another 3 week's time. To be continued....

 

tldr unless you comfortable to flare pipes and recharge R290 yourself, I'd avoid these self-install units as a false economy. Sure, it maybe you're more competent than me on the initial install, but if anything ever happens to it, they seem near impossible to get professionally serviced. (It's extra frustrating that being unregulated literally anyone could do it. It's just F-Gas and GasSafe don't want to go near it as it's not officially "in" their ball court)

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by joth

[bikerchris]

Hi @joth , I think it's really kind of you to mention your experience, thank you very much. 👍 Fingers crossed for you that Appliance Direct turn up...with the right gear.

 

I just checked and my unit uses R32, I wonder if I'll suffer the same fate.

Edited October 27, 2023 by bikerchris
didn't put the user name in properly

[S2D2]

30 minutes ago, joth said:

The story continues.

I contacted two local F-gas companies. First dropped the request moment I uttered R290, second turned up on site anyway, screamed when he saw in ran off and blocked/ghosted all further contact.

Next, I paid an eye-watering deposit to Appliance Direct to have their own service team come one. 2 weeks later they final get back to me to book in a date another week on. Sit waiting here all day (no timeslot given), eventually phone them 20mins on hold they say they'll call me next day. Got the call this morning: the engineer didn't have any R290 on the truck so decided to skip my appointment without letting me know. They've now rescheduled it for another 3 week's time. To be continued....

 

tldr unless you comfortable to flare pipes and recharge R290 yourself, I'd avoid these self-install units as a false economy. Sure, it maybe you're more competent than me on the initial install, but if anything ever happens to it, they seem near impossible to get professionally serviced. (It's extra frustrating that being unregulated literally anyone could do it. It's just F-Gas and GasSafe don't want to go near it as it's not officially "in" their ball court)

 

This is worrying, I assumed a recharge would be reasonably priced should anything go wrong. Any more air con contractors you could try? Maybe @HughF could advise on whether it can be DIYed with reasonably priced kit?

 

Did you find the source of the leak? Assuming no damaged pipes do you reckon it's the mechanical connection? I fudged the required torque based on a the feel of an old torque wrench but didn't have the adaptor to actually use it to make the connection. I was surprised how tight it was, it felt as tight as I could reasonably go without destroying the connection on the smaller pipe.

 

Fingers crossed no issues with my unit, it's started dutifully offsetting gas usage for the heating season.