Wood stove

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

I am fed up with these terribly written articles in the papers and media every other day giving wood burning stoves (WBS) a bad name. I have written to many of the broadsheets "environmental editors" when they run inaccurate articles pointing out the mistakes. The one I love to debate is the often reported, yet highly inaccurate statements about the WBS smoke coming into the room in which it operates. 

 

I collect, pre-season, split, stack and season all my own firewood; softwoods and hardwoods. I reckon I am on about a 36month seasoning process with the firewood I have just now. I use pine kindling and some smaller softwood logs and a piece of hardwood or two to get the stove lit, I manage the start up in that I keep a close eye on it, lots of air, get the fire caught well, you want to get the flue warmed and get a nice draw, at this stage. Usually seen when outside getting an armful of logs, there is a gentle whisp of smoke from the chimney. Once the fire is going well, I close down the air supplies to normal running mode and let it go. I was outside most of yesterday with the stove on inside, I saw no smoke all day. 

 

The issue is idiots with stoves. 

 

 

 

Are they highly inaccurate statements?

 

Every single house ive ever been into with a wood burner, you can smell it. That means combustion products are in it. 

 

And that includes the sub 2.5 micron particulates.

 

Frankly i dont care if you want to poison yourself, but i do care when those activities caause me to suffer.

 

Visible smoke isnt the issue. Its those small particulates. You cant see those.

 

I get there are circumstances in rural locations where its probably not a real problem for others, but for houses connected to the gas network? Really?

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

I would ban them as well.

Banning idiots is going to be a big job and, of course, everybody will have a different list, such that in the end, where we will all be included on someone's list and so banned - QED.

[saveasteading]

10 minutes ago, jamieled said:

That's not smoke. It's steam.

I rather assumed, I know I should find out, that they use bark and waste wood as fuel to dry out the timber chips, and what we see is a mix.

They import whole logs, many from  Norway, and strip the bark then make the flakes. There must be  a huge amount of bark and chips.

There is no shortage of bark around there , with many timber works.

The smoke/steam  certainly always seems to disappear sooner than smoke would.

 

22 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

recycling centre near to where I live

I was in a business group , all MDs trying to be more sustainable. Mostly as an ethos, all to reduce waste, a few for cred points. We went round each others factories etc, and tore strips off each others methods, websites etc. Great fun.

We organised a visit to a nuclear power station and had 3 hours of a Senior Engineer's time. Fascinating.

Then tried for the waste recycling centre, but were declined.  Why?

A waste company however, gave me a tour of their plant where they sort out skips and make most money from the air in a skip, and sorting out recyclables.

I expected to trap them by asking where the plasterboard was.  It was sorted in a corner.

They also make lots of money when the incinerator breaks down, and the trucks go to them instead.

 

They send mixed rubbish to Germany where it gets incinerated. 

 

So why no visits to the recycling centre? I think my confidante was sworn to secrecy on this one. 

Obv something was not to be seen or criticised.

[Ralph]

Last thing I read estimated 200,000 UK installations per year in 2020. The installer I know can't even come out to do estimates until July. No one is banning them.

[saveasteading]

Next chapter

I have just cut back a shrub which was about to overhang the pavement.

I have a pile of sticky, leafy ends which I will shred and use as mulch (4 barrows of mulch so far)

Messy end sticks go in the brown bin  (and I will buy back the equivalent composted. (It was all meant to be free to collect by ratepayers))

Loppable or chain sawn branches are going in the open fire.  Burning amazingly well, just with their natural dryness. Not buying in more logs.

A few branches will be selected to use for bean poles.

 

The options were, skip or bonfire or many trips to the tip. Or 'landscape' contractor who would probably burn it in a field.

So the only thing I could do better, I think, is change open fire to WBS.

 

I planted the shrub 20 years ago so all of it is carbon I sequestered.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

So why no visits to the recycling centre? I think my confidante was sworn to secrecy on this one

 

Too late, it is on the wireless.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0dwpwx9

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I planted the shrub 20 years ago so all of it is carbon I sequestered.

Just for a laugh, time how long it takes to burn.

For even more fun, weight it as well.

[saveasteading]

snappier, than 'taken to Germany and burnt'.

 

 

[saveasteading]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

time how long it takes to burn.

It will do us for 20 evenings, if I chop up the Christmas trees too,.

A bonfire of all of it would have been 2 hours.

Plus has already taken 3 days of my time, but gets me away from this screen.

 

It is only 1/3 pruned, and as we all know, there is as much underground.

 

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Just for a laugh, time how long it takes to burn.

But that doesn't really provide a better alternative. I didn't harvest it, it had to be done for public spiritedness, and I am making best use.

Edited February 6, 2023 by saveasteading

[dpmiller]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

Knowing that Spanish WBS are less than half the price of the same models in the UK, and are very well made, we went to get one for here*.

There were none with direct air.

in passing we noted that there are 3 qualities.

1. Seemed to be from 100 years ago, very rustic and unsophisticated and very, very cheap.  there were lots on display so must be bought.

2. high quality , modern, big name, but not with direct air, yet.

3. very flash indeed.

 

I'm waiting on a Bronpi boiler stove to touch down here in the next week or so. Ecodesign, external air, fancy preheated secondary and tertiary air setup. Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

fancy preheated secondary and tertiary air setup.

Does hat not just add extra air to the exhaust.  Bit like the 'rev hang' on a car to burn off the uncombusted hydrocarbons.

 

 

[dpmiller]

yes, gotta burn the gases.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, jamieled said:

 

That's not smoke. It's steam.

 

It's a handy "windsock" when on the firth on our boat.

[saveasteading]

35 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

Bronpi boiler stove

Yes they are really good, and what we looked at, so some must be specially made for the uk market with the air intake...or things have moved on in  a year.

What model?

Have now looked at the brochure...some with direct air, some without. I like how they have chosen sexy foreign names for stoves like: Bury, Dover, Derby.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I like how they have chosen sexy foreign names for stoves like: Bury, Dover, Derby.

Ventongimp, Polyphant and Cocks would have been better.

[saveasteading]

37 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does hat not just add extra air to the exhaust. 

No, when the flames lick up the back, air jets are sucked through holes in the air bricks and form torches, and are visibly burning unspent fuel from the fumes  , then when it meets the front it gets more air again. and licks down the glass.

I know it burns well as there is a tiny ash pan, and I would say it takes 25 big logs before the pan is full. About 40:1 by volume. How much residue goes up the chimney I have not measured.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I know it burns well as there is a tiny ash pan

Does that not say something to you.

Apart from gaseous oxides, where is the extra mass going?

[saveasteading]

29 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

where is the extra mass going

Heat is produced efficiently, as is the point with a heater.

More ash would just mean more trees (or recycled wood).

I  use all the hardwood fruit prunings too, creating a zero carbon cycle.

Harvesting the summer sun for winter space heating energy, with the bonus of fruit as summer motive energy. An ancient battery system.

 

What happens to the micro particles ? do they float round the world forever or come to earth?

 

[Nick Thomas]

7 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

What happens to the micro particles ? do they float round the world forever or come to earth?

 

 

Oh, it comes to earth alright.

 

 

Pruned an apple tree this winter and burned the (still green) wood that was too girthy for the composting bin in the chiminea. Ridiculous amounts of smoke, but of course, garden fires aren't controlled like wood stoves are.

 

 

The house up in Shetland has a wood-burning stove that I'm giving serious thought to removing. Hard to say at this point whether it'd increase or decrease the sale price to do so.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

What happens to the micro particles ? do they float round the world forever or come to earth

They stay in the atmosphere for quite a long time.

So plenty of opportunity to be inhaled.

 

PM10

 

PM2.5

 

PM1

 

London PM10

 

Paris PM10

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by SteamyTea

[dpmiller]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

 

What model?

 

Hydronova Plus with an add-on fresh air kit

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

Hydronova Plus

Quite a furnace, at 15kW. I don't know, having only dealt with up to 8kW, but it must be a big box, so will there be a minimum fire level to keep it going, that will keep you rather busy?

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Nick Thomas said:

house up in Shetland has a wood-burning stove

There aren't an awful lot of trees though.

Up Helli Aa uses a lot of wood that could have been in yours.

[dpmiller]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Quite a furnace, at 15kW. I don't know, having only dealt with up to 8kW, but it must be a big box, so will there be a minimum fire level to keep it going, that will keep you rather busy?

 

It's reasonably big yes, but looks like it'll throttle down well and there's not very much heat to the room (remember it's a boiler). I was originally heading towards a Woodfire, either a Passiv or a CX8, or an Ecoboiler Wood, but the Passiv has gone to stoopid money, the Ecoboiler was withdrawn,  and there's no production date for the CX8 currently. So I went off-piste in the hope of getting some value out of it this winter rather than next.

The only thing the Bronpi doesn't have is a cooling coil but it is instead specced for a cooling injector valve which is something I've never seen in the UK.

[Carrerahill]

14 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Every single house, I've ever been into with a wood burner, you can smell it. That means combustion products are in it. 

 

Visible smoke isn't the issue. It's those small particulates. You cant see those.

 

I get that there are circumstances in rural locations where it's probably not a real problem for others, but for houses connected to the gas network? Really?

 

 

If you can smell combustion smells in those houses, you must immediately let them know they have a problem. Then the owners need to immediately cease use of the stove investigate or seek professional help.

 

If you can smell a stove or open fire combustion smells in the room, be it coal, wood, oil or gas, you have an issue. The stove box should be negative air pressure, it should be drawing in air, not allowing gasses to escape! Myself and someone else on this forum have done experiments and taken readings with our stoves on, the other BH member thought his meter was broken and lit a match adjacent to it to get a reading and I found that we had more pollution in the room when my wife lit 3 tealights! So these statements are highly inaccurate - much like saying "Gas boilers are poisoning occupants of the house" - they do in a round about away, but not in as much as your being choked with combustions gasses, unless, of course there is an issue.

 

Visible smoke is a big part of the issue because many people produce clouds of the stuff through incorrect operation of the stove and usually by burning green wood or other unsuitable fuels The smoke is heavy, it can linger for hours on a cold day, it is full of combustion smells that can taint clothing and soft furnishings and inhaling that will immediately irritate the throat, lungs etc. and will irritate the eyes if exposed to enough of it - think standing next to a bonfire when the wind changes! The heavy smoke is loaded with loads of particulate, unburnt gasses and other nasties, full high temperature combustion will reduce those.

 

The PM 2.5 particulate exists from many sources, cars, lorries, planes or stoves. It is there. The figures used for stove emissions are highly inaccurate, they use all stoves sold x burning hours per day. Every one of them. The figures are badly skewed. Our neighbours have one, it's never lit, my friend has about 4, he doesn't use them much - I know of about 72 holiday lodges each with 1, hardly anyone holidays there in the winter so they are never really on. 

 

Gas boilers produce pm 2.5 too around 50% more than the average car per annum, they emit around 1/5 of NOx emissions, they also emit other nasties like VOC's, SO2, N2O - or your could burn a locally sourced firewood, seasoned and burned in a well maintained stove which will have fewer emissions than a gas boiler, in managed firewood the CO2 will also be near totally cyclic therefore you could claim near zero CO2 emitted, v's the equivalent of 7 transatlantic flights a gas boiler will produce in a year.