To contract or not to contract

[saveasteading]

Can we see it?

Sounds good. We used to use a 4 page document for very big projects. Clients liked that it was 1. Free. 2 easy to understand.

But lawyers and qs reps of bigger companies prefer more words.

 

[saveasteading]

For general info. 

I recall one project where the local authority desperately needed us to make a project viable. (Tenders well over budget). Their qs was insistent on a highly altered contract that was otherwise industry standard. Every change of course favoured their client, insofar as they even knew why it was altered. 

So I said that we needed to charge for an expert analysis and probably for the increased risk, and there would be a delay. They gave way and the contract was unaltered. School got the sports hall and the 35% saving. The benefit of proper "design and build".

These contracts are intended to be 'fair and equitable' so any change will alter the risk.

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Jimbo37 said:

got this oer last night,

Is there meant to be an attachment? Many would be interested if you have a blank one, ie no names or location.  

[Dave Jones]

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~assets/doc/estates-and-facilities/Standard Specifications/JCT Minor Works Contract with Contractors Design 2016 v3 April 2019.pdf

[Jimbo37]

Of course - I dont expect it will be of great value outside of my own, but maybe. I think it crystallises the import of our conversations and ties our journey together enough to give an overview of what we agreed. Definately not legal enough to do anything other than give someone a heads-up on who might be pushing their luck, if rough stuff comes up, and maybe does enough to stop an insurance company from bowing out. Thanks once again.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zw8iWCTO5ytQrL8lNoJE6HXG1792-yK3Jv95B5iYF3M/edit?usp=sharing

[SBMS]

My advice as well, bearing in my mind what others have said about contracts being fairly useless from an enforcement point of view (good points though regarding flushing out issues) - try and make sure the balance of financial risk isn’t predominantly with you. Our builder for example stood the cost of most of the stages of our build (less a small 5k builders deposit to get going). This fundamentally meant that we could make sure work was carried out to a good standard before payment. It’s one of the reasons I was less bothered with a contract. 

[Adsibob]

My first ever build was about 9 years ago. Thank God I had a contract. It was very well drafted and enabled me to write a detailed letter of claim when the biker walked off the site owing me money. I threatened to sue him, explained by reference to the contract why i thought I would win by reference to the contract. He caved and settled for 90% of what he owed me. That is a best scenario. There will be times that such an approach doesn’t work. But you must absolutely have a thorough contract and as detailed a schedule of works as possible. Get him to prepare a gant chart so that you know what he is planning to do when, and you can be ready for each stage. Make it crystal clear who is responsible for doing and buying each thing.

 

RIBA do a fairly decent set of contracts, one of which will be appropriate for your needs.

[Kelvin]

43 minutes ago, SBMS said:

My advice as well, bearing in my mind what others have said about contracts being fairly useless from an enforcement point of view (good points though regarding flushing out issues) - try and make sure the balance of financial risk isn’t predominantly with you. Our builder for example stood the cost of most of the stages of our build (less a small 5k builders deposit to get going). This fundamentally meant that we could make sure work was carried out to a good standard before payment. It’s one of the reasons I was less bothered with a contract. 

This is how I’ve agreed the groundswork. We have the various stages written down and I pay after each bit is completed. We don’t have a contract in place. 

[SBMS]

1 hour ago, Adsibob said:

My first ever build was about 9 years ago. Thank God I had a contract. It was very well drafted and enabled me to write a detailed letter of claim when the biker walked off the site owing me money. I threatened to sue him, explained by reference to the contract why i thought I would win by reference to the contract. He caved and settled for 90% of what he owed me. That is a best scenario. There will be times that such an approach doesn’t work. But you must absolutely have a thorough contract and as detailed a schedule of works as possible. Get him to prepare a gant chart so that you know what he is planning to do when, and you can be ready for each stage. Make it crystal clear who is responsible for doing and buying each thing.

 

RIBA do a fairly decent set of contracts, one of which will be appropriate for your needs.

Think this was something I was pretty worried about when starting off, hence why we agreed to pay in arrears at the end of each stage - I always owe the builder money rather than other way round. 

[Jimbo37]

I opted to let him suggest payment terms as I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, and I  anticipate they will be reasonable, and largely in arrears - and if they are crazy, I’ll not agree. I have quite a detailed quote with 130 lines, so approximating the value of work done should be reasonably feasible. Not perfect, but he strikes me as pragmatic, and I really only wanted the agreement so as to capture the headlines and spirit of our discussion @Adsibob I’m pleased you got your value out of the contract, and it is a good reminder that relations can go sour - Although it’s solid advice, I’ll go with my casual doc, and pay largely in arrears as @SBMS mentions. Having built a garage a couple of years back, I know there will be disagreements and affable people can get (temporarily) humpy quick enough - I’m taking nothing for granted.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jimbo37

[Adsibob]

10 hours ago, SBMS said:

Think this was something I was pretty worried about when starting off, hence why we agreed to pay in arrears at the end of each stage - I always owe the builder money rather than other way round. 

Yes, I thought that this is what I had agreed to and signed up to. But the builder misled me. Anyway, luckily that was a long time ago and resolved ok. Lessons learnt!

[Adsibob]

9 hours ago, Jimbo37 said:

I’ll go with my casual doc, and pay largely in arrears

You could post your doc here and the forum could go through it and identify the missing gaps. You could then amend the doc to legislate for those, send it to the builder in track changes and ask him to confirm he has included these. He will say “no” and then you can agree a price for those items as well.

 

i had an incredibly detailed schedule of works. It had about 250 items on it. I also had a pack of construction drawings my architect has prepared which were maybe 35 pages in all. As the we went through the build we regularly came up with things that I hadn’tprovisioned for and which the builder wanted to charge me extra. He was generally right, but the constant revision of the budget upwards was stressful. As was the need to suddenly research which type of insulation or which type of sealant to be used for the missing item, and then buy it.

[saveasteading]

He has. See link currently  18 hours ago

[ETC]

17 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

You could post your doc here and the forum could go through it and identify the missing gaps. You could then amend the doc to legislate for those, send it to the builder in track changes and ask him to confirm he has included these. He will say “no” and then you can agree a price for those items as well.

 

i had an incredibly detailed schedule of works. It had about 250 items on it. I also had a pack of construction drawings my architect has prepared which were maybe 35 pages in all. As the we went through the build we regularly came up with things that I hadn’tprovisioned for and which the builder wanted to charge me extra. He was generally right, but the constant revision of the budget upwards was stressful. As was the need to suddenly research which type of insulation or which type of sealant to be used for the missing item, and then buy it.

Sounds a bit like an NEC Contract. Priced schedules and Compensation Events.