MikeSharp01 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 Do you think your system looks like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 20 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Looks like you can turn on the immersion heater to get the bath problem sorted. Not sue that 2Deg C is sufficient difference to get the tank to ever reach the 48Deg C figure, has it ever reached 48 with the 50Deg setting? As the actual temperature out of the ASHP will be much lower by the time it reaches the tank coil almost no matter how much insulation you have. So you need a few more degrees on that setting otherwise it won't get to temperature and switch to heating. 18Kw is loads so you should have no problem delivering serious quantities of HW to the tank but the temp must be high enough to overcome the losses in the system. Yes I get that, its 16kw , but no matter its still a lot. Ok I have had a small but significant break through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 I also found this in the manual: "We normally aim to heat the cylinder within an hour, if you want to decrease the reheat time you can do so by pressing the DHW mode button, this will show a picture of a bath and will run both heat pump and immersion heater at the same time." Which should solve your immediate problem. Presumably the legionella cycle is done with the immersion heater as the HP won't achieve that. I did think of a test to see the difference between the heat pump set point and the tank temperature. Get the DHW cycle running and after an hour, assuming it has not reached the 48DegC temperature back of the 48 temp setting by 1 deg at a time until the system recognises the tank is warm enough. This will give you the difference (delta) and you can then adjust your main flow temperature up to overcome it. Curiously there seems only to be one flow temperature setting in your system '2021' there is no equivalent in the heating group 3XXX so maybe the thing just runs at maximum until the temperature is reached. If this is the case then the temperature you get from my experiment above is the max the system can reach in current circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 13 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Do you think your system looks like this? Pretty much but no Heating storage tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 I'll ask again just in case it was missed. Regardless of what the controller is saying, do the radiators cool off when it's trying to heat the hot tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: I also found this in the manual: "We normally aim to heat the cylinder within an hour, if you want to decrease the reheat time you can do so by pressing the DHW mode button, this will show a picture of a bath and will run both heat pump and immersion heater at the same time." Which should solve your immediate problem. Presumably the legionella cycle is done with the immersion heater as the HP won't achieve that. I did think of a test to see the difference between the heat pump set point and the tank temperature. Get the DHW cycle running and after an hour, assuming it has not reached the 48DegC temperature back of the 48 temp setting by 1 deg at a time until the system recognises the tank is warm enough. This will give you the difference (delta) and you can then adjust your main flow temperature up to overcome it. Curiously there seems only to be one flow temperature setting in your system '2021' there is no equivalent in the heating group 3XXX so maybe the thing just runs at maximum until the temperature is reached. If this is the case then the temperature you get from my experiment above is the max the system can reach in current circumstances. 2 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: I also found this in the manual: "We normally aim to heat the cylinder within an hour, if you want to decrease the reheat time you can do so by pressing the DHW mode button, this will show a picture of a bath and will run both heat pump and immersion heater at the same time." Which should solve your immediate problem. Presumably the legionella cycle is done with the immersion heater as the HP won't achieve that. I did think of a test to see the difference between the heat pump set point and the tank temperature. Get the DHW cycle running and after an hour, assuming it has not reached the 48DegC temperature back of the 48 temp setting by 1 deg at a time until the system recognises the tank is warm enough. This will give you the difference (delta) and you can then adjust your main flow temperature up to overcome it. Curiously there seems only to be one flow temperature setting in your system '2021' there is no equivalent in the heating group 3XXX so maybe the thing just runs at maximum until the temperature is reached. If this is the case then the temperature you get from my experiment above is the max the system can reach in current circumstances. I get the first part and I can see the options available and I have seen the video from Graham Hendra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 1 minute ago, dpmiller said: I'll ask again just in case it was missed. Regardless of what the controller is saying, do the radiators cool off when it's trying to heat the hot tank? No not noticed this , but I a have always in mind to check why the rads are cold when they should be maintaining the cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 On 14/01/2023 at 12:26, Alfapat said: To determine the switch over then ,there should be no heat icon showing at top right of controller , would that be correct , similarly the water tank symbol should not be active if rads/heat is on ? I never saw the hot tank icon disappear in the the last 5 years of operation , I think I have had a small beakthrough. I measured the water this morning and as I said earlier and found out that the cake probe i used under the hot tap was showing 47.c. So following that I went to the loft with some warm water and pulled the probe out of the tank and dipped it in with the cake probe into the water and both showed the same results. I rest the probe into the tank and found it short of length and so unclipped the lead from the loom to gain a bit more, so I reckon a further 6 inches was found and put it back in. Incidentally the cake probe was showing 47.5.c at 4.5 inches. Secured the wire and went back down , looked at the hot tank temp on the controller and alas showing 48.c . What happened next, the tank symbol disappeared ! First time ever! So now Ill see if the kw/h will reduce. I can only presume that the machine has constantly tried to reach the temperature set , I don't know . Watch this space ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 28 minutes ago, Alfapat said: I can only presume that the machine has constantly tried to reach the temperature set , I don't know . Watch this space ! Pretty un intelligent of the machine, but given everything sounds right - it never gets to set point. There is something else that Graham says in his video - if you set the tank temperature to 48 then the water in the tank can vary between 43 and 50 implying that the hysteresis is 7 degrees so although the set point is 48 the system turns off when it gets to 50 and back on when it gets to 43. So if the flow temp is too ow it never gets there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Pretty un intelligent of the machine, but given everything sounds right - it never gets to set point. There is something else that Graham says in his video - if you set the tank temperature to 48 then the water in the tank can vary between 43 and 50 implying that the hysteresis is 7 degrees so although the set point is 48 the system turns off when it gets to 50 and back on when it gets to 43. So if the flow temp is too ow it never gets there! Yes , I am really hoping that this shows that the pump or set temp is happy now and Im looking for for less consumption. It would make sense but time will tell. Even in the summer that tank icon and pump cycling is always on and the only way of deleting it is to turn off the system , as I saw it . It saved 10-15kw/h through 8 hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 Hi This image from another post on here gives you a good indication of your system: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Hi This image from another post on here gives you a good indication of your system: They are very close , strange that I have a holding tank for heating, but that surely is a good thing. I'm not sure were the coli is placed in the dhw , I m sure I can work that out , doesn't matter just now. I have a hot water expansion and dhw expansion tank Edited January 15, 2023 by Alfapat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 kWh, never kw/h J.s-1s-1 is a nonsense unit, and that is what you get when you divide power by time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: kWh, never kw/h J.s-1s-1 is a nonsense unit, and that is what you get when you divide power by time. WHAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 13 hours ago, Alfapat said: strange that I have a holding tank for heating Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, just this last page, but when you say holding tank do you mean buffer tank. If so is it fitted near where CH1 Zone Valve is shown on the schematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Alfapat said: WHAT! Exactly. Power (W, watt) is energy (J, joule) divided by time (s, second) Energy is power (W, watt) multiplied by time (s, second) There are 3,600 seconds in an hour Edited January 16, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 31 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Exactly. Power (W, watt) is energy (J, joule) divided by time (s, second) Energy is power (W, watt) multiplied by time (s, second) There are 3,600 seconds in an hour Yes I know what kw/h stands for , I am noy seeing your point of posting , sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Alfapat said: Yes I know what kw/h stands for So do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Gone West said: Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, just this last page, but when you say holding tank do you mean buffer tank. If so is it fitted near where CH1 Zone Valve is shown on the schematic. If you look back there is a picture of my system , water to right, valves between tanks. Not sure which valve is which till I study it again. Page one of thread. Edited January 16, 2023 by Alfapat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 Going back to the title "Living with" I thought all would be fine with the hot water on track at 48c , but complaints from her indoors says there was barely enough , colder night I suppose and a long cold length for it to travel , so I am upping the temp by 2 degrees and since the DHW tank temp icon disappears from the controller now , the expected power usage should drop. Just to ruin all this the heating failed to come on when I happened to be up this morning , what in heavens name is going on , no error codes -0.5 c outside , 17.5 on thermostat asking for heat which is set for 20c All back to normal just now 10.am. Worse than having a Land Rover or is it 🤨!! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 16, 2023 Author Share Posted January 16, 2023 22 hours ago, Alfapat said: Ok , so heating runs at one temperature , that is showing on the control as 20/21 degrees which is what the room thermostat is asking and eventually receives . right ? The cylinder or circ temp in the heating tank is 36.2. The heating flow temp is the same as the heating tank temperature . I wonder if you are talking about Hot water tank temperature. That is set to 48 degrees and if hot water is required and falls below by 5 degrees then the flow temp kicks in which should be up to 50 degrees which its set to , heats the water back up. Yes spot on. Only I have what Freedom Pumps suggest on Video which is 48c , I will up this tonight to 50c and put flow up to 52 , now that the DHW icon disappears because it reaches desired temp due to the proper placement of probe. Sorry if I don't come across correctly but I do understand now thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 Nope , this is not working , DHW SET TO REACH 50C but cuts out at 48c , will check my new parameters set. DHW no better at other end of Bungalow despite lagging . Heating till 3am when I happened to be up , 20c House temp .,which was fine . Circulation /flow 39c set for 52c -1c outside. 6.30 am No heating and error E911 showing and defrost on for pump. Cancel by pressing On button gen5 Sun icon. Got home and DHW sitting at 48c and circ 53c so kind of working , but why not all the time . Recko there could be scavenging but not all the time , probably switch valves . As for error code , which is flow fault , I can only put this down to frost , but it should overcome this. Just saying perhaps it might help someone with the same scenario , will post when I get a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted January 29, 2023 Author Share Posted January 29, 2023 So far , I have found out part of my fault is an intermittent HW motorized valve is faulty. Which would explain scavenging of the system . Also not certain , but the valves (HW and Heating ) may wired wrongly . Electrician checking Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfapat Posted August 15, 2023 Author Share Posted August 15, 2023 As I never finished this thread properly , I thought I would say much of the problems I had are gone . The plumber /electrician I eventually found knew what he was doing and found all the wiring wrongly set up. Basically the system was not independently running between the two sys ie. DHW AND HEATING . So all last year through the summer , heating side was using cold and vice versa! Bills are a lot less , thankfully. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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