Help ... can anybody recommend a good joinery company?

[hendriQ]

I think I may be at my wits end. After spending a couple of £k on design fees, we commissioned our joinery in 2021. The joiner was given 20 pages of detailed design drawings, with all measurements and the contract was based on those drawings. That joiner ripped us off, took our 50% deposit and never did anything for us.

 

We then split the joinery project into 7 sub-projects and commissioned three of those sub-projects with a new joiner, with the promise we would do the rest of it with him if he did a good job. He did the first project, almost finished it and then disappeared. Haven't heard from him in over 4 months.

 

We then decided to stop going with the cheapest options and commissioned a company that had been recommended by a friend. The sacrifice here was that this company was very expensive, almost double some of the other quotes we'd received, but we thought "you pay for what you get". This company did the first piece for us and it came out really well. We were happy with it and asked if they could do more for us. They were initially reluctant but then agreed to do a bookcase and some wardrobes and wall cladding. Although that was all fairly big scale stuff, it wasn't any harder than the first project they did for us, which was a massive piece of furniture in its own right. So all they were signing up for really was more of the same. As before, we paid their 50% deposit and have been working with them over the last month or so to finalise matters and they have done a site survey and produced some construction drawings based on our designer's drawings. At their request they came back for a second site survey as apparently they missed some measurements the first time. It's all been quite professional and I've been impressed by all the laser equipment they have to take accurate measurements and levels and the detail on their drawings (similar to the detail on our designer's drawings, but with a few changes to overcome the reality of actually constructing it). Yesterday, the company contacts me and this woman tells me it's too difficult a project for them and they are going to pull out and return the "majority" of my deposit. I tried to explain to her that they couldn't do this and that they needed to stick to the agreement we'd come to, but it was little use. No explanation as to how much of my deposit (which is over £10k) I'm going to get back. But it's a horrible position to be in as we'd been in discussions with this company for a few months, they put pressure on us to pay a deposit to fix material prices, and now we're back to square one, possibly losing some of our deposit. Today I decided to write a nice email basically saying that there must be some misunderstanding and begging them not to pull out and suggesting ways we could try to resolve the position.

 

Just really odd behaviour to have gone from really professional to really unprofessional so quickly and for no reason. 

 

I just don't understand why I've been so unlucky. Granted the project is ambitious, but why do people sign up to stuff if they think they can't do it.

 

If anybody has any recommendations for what will now be our FOURTH joiner, please PM me as I would really appreciate it.

 

[ToughButterCup]

4 minutes ago, hendriQ said:

.... 

I just don't understand why I've been so unlucky. Granted the project is ambitious, but why do people sign up to stuff if they think they can't do it.

....

 

First, I'm really sorry you have had this awful experience. It's fairly a regular, not to say common story on this board. But that won't diminish the hurt you feel.

 

I think I may know part of the answer to your question (highlighted in bold above).

 

Networks.

Your project 'feels' pretty large. And while your hesitant start did find some who wanted to engage, they withdrew - probably (in one case) because of the size of the project. Silence is a common weapon used by traders and customers who lack the emotional intelligence to say  'No ' politely. Your experience in that respect widespread here. We've all (I bet) suffered from the unanswered phone syndrome.  At least one company tried to tell you  'No (more)' . But as you say: they found it difficult - because they hadn't thought it the whole thing through I expect.

 

The formal process of Due Diligence - while basic to large projects - is cumbersome. Traders need a back-office to manage it: customers need to make the time to follow it.  So corners are cut - on both sides.

 

Please don't misunderstand this post: there's no Schadenfreude here. (Even though I'm  German by birth).

 

May I suggest you find out a lot more about potential suppliers in future? A lot more. Networking is hard work: from golf-course to pub or polite Sunday morning chit chat outside church.

 

A project your size needs a  long contacts list. 

Good luck

Ian

 

 

[ProDave]

I think the lesson is don't give 50% deposits to traders you hardly know let alone trust.

 

By FAR the best way to choose a tradesman is by personal recommendation by someone they have previously done work for.  I know about 4 local joiners, but only one was good enough to be allowed to to my Oak kitchen worktop and hang a load of Oak doors for me.

[ToughButterCup]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

.... but only one was good enough to be allowed to to my Oak kitchen worktop and hang a load of Oak doors for me.

 

and on admission, (s)he had to shower, change into a Hazmat suit, use Festool-level dust extraction .....

 

The point @ProDave makes (but because he's modest, he doesn't quite say it)  he's an experienced electrician - he's made hundreds of build-related contacts over the years he's worked in the Highlands. Knows when each local trader breaks wind in the pub, who's disgraced themselves with a customer's wife, who's doing well, who's on his way out. And who never to touch....

 

Priceless information, priceless.

[hendriQ]

Thanks for everyone's comments. I made the mistake of relying on recommendations from effectively people i didn't know for scroundel 1 and 2. But for the third one, the recommendation came from a trusted source and the company's accounts on companies house looked ok.

 

It would be helpful to understand how people recommend I find a fourth joiner and how I should do appropriate due diligence. My view on websites like trust a trader.com is that it is easy to manipulate by its members because you only seemed to get asked to review a trader when the job goes well.

 

This company that has let me down most recently was member of various livery companies and guilds, so searching on their databases doesn't really inspire me with confidence either, but perhaps that is a bit irrational on my part. No reason why one member's foibles should affect another's.

 

It's all thoroughly depressing. If i were to behave like this with my clients I would get into a lot of trouble with my boss and possibly even with my regulator. Life can be really sh!t sometimes.

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, hendriQ said:

member of various livery companies and guild

certain of these just ask for a letterhead and money.

 

I am very experienced in finding and choosing new contractors and still find it difficult when in a new area.

You can't really tell how it is going to go, so I treat them with total respect, but am actually suspicious for quite  a long time.

Hence our policy was always to retain trusted companies, for many years usually, unless they let us down.

 

Of course the trade you want in a hurry is likely to be fully occupied already, and you end up with the aspirational ones, or chancers.

 

Bad luck. 

I would just say that I don't recall ever getting a good tradesman from the recommendations of a merchant. Ask at the local BM by all means, but beware.

 

Do you by any chance have a 'Nextdoor' community in your area? You can ask for recommendations on there. https://nextdoor.co.uk/

 

 

[Adsibob]

I hate it when this kind of thing happens. Some contractors just have no backbone. 

[eandg]

Not sure the exact nature of the project but given it seems like you have the means then the best idea might be to find the craftsman behind similar projects, provide the materials and pay a day rate until the job gets done to the high standard required? There must be plenty of good carpenters in London fancying a bespoke bit of work.

[Adsibob]

3 hours ago, eandg said:

There must be plenty of good carpenters in London fancying a bespoke bit of work.

If there are, I don’t know how to find them. Any ideas?

[saveasteading]

https://nextdoor.co.uk/

[Gus Potter]

@Gow, thanks for the praise, much appreciated.

 

On 05/01/2023 at 12:26, hendriQ said:

If anybody has any recommendations for what will now be our FOURTH joiner, please PM me as I would really appreciate it.

A company I have done a bit of work with are old skoool cabinet makes / joiners and do high end stuff... well.

 

One of the guys spent 5 years doing his joinery apprenticeship then another I think 3-5 years training as a cabinet maker, at that time they then needed to do two extra years after that as what was called a "journeyman" before full recognition.

 

Worth having a look at what they can offer and if not in your neighbourhood / or suits you then hopefully you can find someone along these lines. Call Niall and if they can't help then they may know someone who can / give you some pointers, depends on where you are located.

 

https://www.joinery-glasgow.com/

 

Good luck with the project and hope your luck changes.

 

 

 

[Indy]

https://kewjoinery.co.uk/

 

Friends of ours have used them. Very good but also very expensive.