Insulation only provides short-term reduction in household gas consumption, study of UK housing suggests

[Roger440]

18 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

But more seriously, I think the problem identified by this badly reported study, is that you can’t just change one thing and expect it will fix all people’s heat loss issues. Of course insulation is important, but it won’t fix everything unless it is accompanied by changes in behaviour. Smart thermostats, extensive zoning of heating circuits and MVHR will all make environmentally friendly behaviour easier to happen naturally. E.g. rooms won’t get stuffy if the heating system is properly zoned with enough smart thermostats installed and MVHR keeping the air fresh. So there is less scope for stupid behaviour, like opening the windows in the middle of winter.

 

That wont work. Where are the clever people that can set all that stuff up. Let me tell you, there are nowhere near enough of them. Nor, realistically is it likely that the installer can set this up at the time. As is evidenced on here, to get these things working perfectly takes some analysis, tinkering and experimentation to get right. Out in the real world that just isnt going to happen. People will do what they always do. Open a window, switch off the MVHR etc.

 

Thats before you get to the costs of such systems.

[joe90]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

I think the problem identified by this badly reported study, is that you can’t just change one thing and expect it will fix all people’s heat loss issues.

However (being devils advocate) just installing extra insulation and keeping thermostats ETC the same WILL save money.

[SteamyTea]

16 minutes ago, joe90 said:

However (being devils advocate) just installing extra insulation and keeping thermostats ETC the same WILL save money.

Not according to my coffee drinking mate.

He bought his Mother a 1500 W panel heater to heat her living room, cost on the meter was just over 6 quid a day.

So decided to buy an 800 W oil filled heater, as the oil works like a storage heater, now it only costs 4 quid a day.

 

I did not point out that it was at least 10°C warmer now.

He has special physics, but no thermometer.

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Smart thermostats, extensive zoning of heating circuits

Not sure that's the answer.  So a thermostat is connected to the internet, and you have so many zone your boiler short cycles and you use more gas.  Or is it the answer, that's what they all did?

[Onoff]

How about keeping your house warm enough so you don't have to wear any clothes. You save by not running the washing machine, tumble dryer etc. Similarly do no cooking and just order in. 

 

😉

[JohnMo]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

1500 W panel heater to heat her living room, cost on the meter was just over 6 quid a day.

So decided to buy an 800 W oil filled heater, as the oil works like a storage heater, now it only costs 4 quid a day.

Maybe it's more simple

 

12hrs at 1500W and 34p per kWh is around £6

12hrs at 800W and 34p per kWh is around £4

[Kelvin]

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

How about keeping your house warm enough so you don't have to wear any clothes. You save by not running the washing machine, tumble dryer etc. Similarly do no cooking and just order in. 

 

😉

Do you plan on never leaving the house? 

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Maybe it's more simple

Not as simple as he is.

 

5 minutes ago, Onoff said:

How about keeping your house warm enough so you don't have to wear any clothes. You save by not running the washing machine, tumble dryer etc. Similarly do no cooking and just order in. 

You watched those pizza delivery video stories as well.

[Adsibob]

16 minutes ago, joe90 said:

However (being devils advocate) just installing extra insulation and keeping thermostats ETC the same WILL save money.

Yes, I agree with this, especially with the emphasis on your use of the word “just”. But as soon as you do something else, like open the window, you’re wasting energy.

 

I agree with @Roger440. I think the only solution is to put a greater focus on training of plumbers, electricians and other installers. I will give you an example:

the plumber/gas engineer that plumbed my house and installed our heating was, on the whole, fairly competent. But when I asked him for advice on which type of plumbing layout would be best, or how to get the most efficient secondary hot water loop, he had no idea. He thought all pipe should be 15mm or 22mm thick and that there was no use for anything smaller whatsoever. He didn’t insulate any pipes, and when I asked him to insulate the hot water loop, he did but with a very very thin insulation. Maybe these aren’t such bad mistakes, and you could argue he was not a designer, just an installer. But he made some really stupid other suggestions:

 

1) i did a heat loss calculation and tools him I was buying a 24kw boiler for him to install. He thought I be was mad. He literally said that I shouldn’t be taking the risk with a five bed house and that anything less than 32kw was madness and that really I should get at least 35kw. I started to doubt my calculations and got a 32kw boiler. A couple of weeks ago, we had a situation which caused us to run all the heating in the house plus heat the hot water tank. I checked the display of my Viesmann Vitodens 200W 32kW boiler. The gas burner was modulating at 54%. My boiler is massively oversized. I think even 24kW was an excessive heat loss calculation and then I remembered that in my calcs I erred on the side of caution and rounded up most uncertainties.

 

2) when I asked him what times I should hear my hot water and for how long, he said “well you have a thermostat, so I would just leave it running all day, because the cylinder  will never overheat”.

 

If professionals give this sort of advice to somebody who bothers to do their own independent research, like me, what hope does somebody less interested in these things have?

[Roger440]

20 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Yes, I agree with this, especially with the emphasis on your use of the word “just”. But as soon as you do something else, like open the window, you’re wasting energy.

 

I agree with @Roger440. I think the only solution is to put a greater focus on training of plumbers, electricians and other installers. I will give you an example:

the plumber/gas engineer that plumbed my house and installed our heating was, on the whole, fairly competent. But when I asked him for advice on which type of plumbing layout would be best, or how to get the most efficient secondary hot water loop, he had no idea. He thought all pipe should be 15mm or 22mm thick and that there was no use for anything smaller whatsoever. He didn’t insulate any pipes, and when I asked him to insulate the hot water loop, he did but with a very very thin insulation. Maybe these aren’t such bad mistakes, and you could argue he was not a designer, just an installer. But he made some really stupid other suggestions:

 

1) i did a heat loss calculation and tools him I was buying a 24kw boiler for him to install. He thought I be was mad. He literally said that I shouldn’t be taking the risk with a five bed house and that anything less than 32kw was madness and that really I should get at least 35kw. I started to doubt my calculations and got a 32kw boiler. A couple of weeks ago, we had a situation which caused us to run all the heating in the house plus heat the hot water tank. I checked the display of my Viesmann Vitodens 200W 32kW boiler. The gas burner was modulating at 54%. My boiler is massively oversized. I think even 24kW was an excessive heat loss calculation and then I remembered that in my calcs I erred on the side of caution and rounded up most uncertainties.

 

2) when I asked him what times I should hear my hot water and for how long, he said “well you have a thermostat, so I would just leave it running all day, because the cylinder  will never overheat”.

 

If professionals give this sort of advice to somebody who bothers to do their own independent research, like me, what hope does somebody less interested in these things have?

 

Almost none to answer your last question.

 

Training wont fix the problem. And who would train them anyway? Doing it right is complex and requires thougt, understanding and some calulations. Those that can do that will. And will no doubt have more work than they can cope with. 

 

The scale of education required to get to a point where the alleged wave of heat pump installations that need doing are done right is mind boggling. It simply cant and wont happen at the pace being talked about.

 

I had a nice chap move my oil boiler, as it was rather low and somewhat flood prone. Its outside, so the pipes outside needed extending as part of raising it. Attached to the wall with the usual white clips. Under duress he fitted some 13mm wall, grey pipe insulation. The stuff you get from B&Q/wickes etc.

 

Which he had to trim to fit between the wall and pipe. At the ends where there is a 90 degree fitting he put some duct tape over the exposed elbows. And called it done. So bugger all insulation, un insulated on the elbows, and with insulation thats not UV stable in an outdoor south facing environment. So i get to heat up the world. This is basic stuff. And these are the people you are expecting to come up with and install and set up a complex system multi-zone system? As i say, not going to happen.

 

I have subsequently had to insulate it properly with UV stable, 25mm wall armaflex. With proper corners. Though still compromised on clearance to the wall as i cant change that. Yet everyone uses those clips thus ensuring you CANT fit insulation.

 

Oh, and where it passed through the wall, he sleeved them through a 28mm copper pipe. Which is good as it means the actual pipe wont be in contact with the brick/cement. Sadly, however, it surfaces inside a boxed in area. No attempt made to seal the sleeve to the pipe or the sleeve to the wall. So another penetration that can leak air.................... Needless to say, also fixed by me.

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Not sure that's the answer.  So a thermostat is connected to the internet, and you have so many zone your boiler short cycles and you use more gas.  Or is it the answer, that's what they all did?

It won’t short cycle if designed properly. We have a boiler that can modulate to something like 1/18th of its maximum and we have a low loss header. No buffer tank. It never short cycles.

[joe90]

The above comments just go to show that all us non professional, but interested people do better than (most) trained professionals. Great advise here from people that know and don’t mind sharing their knowledge. 

[SteamyTea]

It is interesting about the science and mathematics needed.  It is taught at GCSE level.

What is lacking is public understanding and interest.

I tried to set up a course, couple of hours once a week for a term, about environmental issues.  The CAM commented that she thought it would be about recycling and growing your own vegetables.

To show how little has changed in 15 years, the BBC, this week, are running a show on the radio that highlights the mismatch between the science and the public understanding.

Here is the link.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gk5d

 

I suspect very few of you will listen to it though.

Edited January 3, 2023 by SteamyTea

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

modulate to something like 1/18th of its maximum and we have a low loss header

Sorry a bit of a rant, not directed at anyone.

 

You have a designed system, but not everyone does, you need the whole system to be designed correctly to work well.  People are stuffing there houses with trvs,  thermostats and zoning everything, thinking it's a magic bullet, while also having an oversized gas boiler - I have also been in the same position. Plumbers like to S and Y plans, but it's crap for boiler efficiency.

 

We learn from it, other don't, I now know on a day to day basis exactly what the boiler is doing and how efficiently, went out if my way to install an energy meter at the UFH manifold.  Lots don't read the gas meter from one season to the next.

 

Funny thing in most cases when running multiple zones without an alternative flow path the boiler cannot cope and gas consumption goes up.  Most boilers don't modulate as much as yours either, very few houses have a LLH, or buffer, most used to use an always open radiator in the hall, but people put Trvs there as well. Modulation, mine at 30 deg flow temps is about 6:1, many are much worse, I needed a buffer, now I can happily supply 0.5kWh average to the UFH when the weather is about 10-12 degs and the boiler efficiency stays high.

[Roger440]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

It is interesting about the science and mathematics needed.  It is taught at GCSE level.

Indeed it is. I did O level (that dates me) in maths and physics. The flaw in the plan was that i failed both!

[joe90]

6 hours ago, Adsibob said:

Yes, I agree with this, especially with the emphasis on your use of the word “just”. But as soon as you do something else, like open the window, you’re wasting energy.

True but if the house temp is the same as before the insulation was installed (because the stats work) and the window was opened the same heat loss would have occurred, you just paid less to get the house to that temp 🤯. I remember @SteamyTea saying as long time ago that energy was too cheap and until it was more expensive people would continue to waste it. Recently estate agents have told me that house buyers are beginning to take into account the EPC,s when looking at buying a house now that energy is more expensive.

[markc]

The “new improved” soon becomes the norm and people expect more.

I grew up in a council house with a coal fire, no central heating and single glazed steel windows … in winter there was often ice on the inside of the windows but we survived. Now anyone not able to keep their central heating on is vulnerable and going to die.

[joe90]

 

[billt]

10 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

It is interesting about the science and mathematics needed.  It is taught at GCSE level.

What is lacking is public understanding and interest.

I tried to set up a course, couple of hours once a week for a term, about environmental issues.  The CAM commented that she thought it would be about recycling and growing your own vegetables.

To show how little has changed in 15 years, the BBC, this week, are running a show on the radio that highlights the mismatch between the science and the public understanding.

Here is the link.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001gk5d

 

I suspect very few of you will listen to it though.

 

No because it will be 42 minutes wasted and probably full of rambling and repetition which could be better presented as a text summary to be read in less than 10 minutes.

[SteamyTea]

Just now, billt said:

 

No because it will be 42 minutes wasted and probably full of rambling and repetition which could be better presented as a text summary to be read in less than 10 minutes.

Then you will never know.

[billt]

There's a high probability that I know already.

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, billt said:

There's a high probability that I know already.

That is an interesting reply.

On today's broadcast, they were talking about the workplace economics of going green.

I learn quite a bit, and I studied environmental economics, but from a western perspective.  The two Ugandans on the course saw things very differently.