Water damage

[Russell griffiths]

I'm a firm believer in that you can learn from looking at others failures and working on things that have failed in some way. 

Look at this video and tell me your thoughts on the weather proofing of this timber frame house and what should we be doing to prevent failure. 

Cheers russ. 

 

[ToughButterCup]

Hmm, I think there's enough evidence in the film to conclude: don't use stucco, and make sure the windows are aluminium clad, especially if they are facing the prevailing wind.

I suspect the prevailing temperature range will have something to do with it: I bet that house faces south.

[Russell griffiths]

The damage to the osb was a bit scary. 

[ADLIan]

This is one of the reasons why we don't render directly onto timber frame in this country. Render should be onto a carrier board with ventilated cavity behind to protect the structural frame (and any insulation external to the frame).

 

ian

[Ferdinand]

@Russell griffiths Agree with the "need to learn" sentiment. The vid is both thought-provoking, and generally provoking.

 

The chap seems to want to sell us his windows as the solution, while the problem is actually not the previous windows but poor detailing such as that directing water *behind* the Tyvek membrane.

 

I think it doesn't actually tell us anything about materials, but about workmanship, design and maintenance. Do not have your house built by idiots that do not understand either the local conditions or how to build a house suitable for such.

 

@recoveringacademic

Quote

don't use stucco, and make sure the windows are aluminium clad,

Disagree. The most exclusive parts of London are full of houses built using stucco and wooden windows, which are still perfectly sound 200 years later - even though many were generally just thrown up by the Barratts and WImpeys of their day. (*)

 

You can argue aluminium clad for no maintenance but painted wood is fine if maintained. Though I am not sure how long a track record aluminium cladding can demonstrate.

 

Can any experienced window-bod comment on the quality of his new installation system?

 

There is also something about Yanks building houses for the short-term, rather than to last. In the UK the median house is 60-70 years old. In the US it is about 30. Look, for example, how much work has to be done to make Frank Lloyd-Wright houses last more than about 30 years.

 

Ferdinand

 

(*) Witness the wonderful reaction by metropolitan journalism-person Deborah Orr when her 18xx speculatively built house failed to maintain itself in 2012.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/25/deborah-orr-roof-collapse-insurance

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/02/deborah-orr-roof-silent-disaster

"My roof episode has taught me we need more decent insurers – and newspapers"

(Er .. no .. we need fewer moronic silly homeowners who do not pay attention to their responsibilities)

(Er .. no .. My roof episode has taught me we need more decent insurers – and newspapers

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

6 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

[...]

There is also something about Yanks building houses for the short-term, rather than to last. In the UK the median house is 60-70 years old. In the US it is about 30. Look, for example, how much work has to be done to make Frank Lloyd-Wright houses last more than about 30 years.

[...]

(*) Witness the wonderful reaction by metropolitan journalism-person Deborah Orr when her 18xx speculatively built house failed to maintain itself in 2012.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/25/deborah-orr-roof-collapse-insurance

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/02/deborah-orr-roof-silent-disaster

"My roof episode has taught me we need more decent insurers – and newspapers"

(Er .. no .. we need fewer moronic silly homeowners who do not pay attention to their responsibilities)

 

I wondered about Stucco in the American context and did a bit of research before replying above. You are right @Ferdinand I should not have suggested avoiding stucco: instead I should have focussed on the contractor. Here's flavour of the research I did; 

• An American law firm educating prospective clients
• One can find many discussions like this (too many others to reference)
• Here's a video itemising common problems with stucco

Maybe the Italian houses in which I stayed were all poorly maintained. And finally I read the Guardian too much.

@Russell griffiths, thanks for starting this thread. @Ferdinand, Ms Orr is off my Christmas card list

[Russell griffiths]

The stucco thing is a very silly idea if you think about it. 

Render onto a timber frame, any cracking or poor areas around windows and other projections is asking for trouble. 

 

 

This his has made me think about different types of house wrap. 

The standard tyvec type flapping in the wind stuff that you see on most timber frames always looks badly installed to me. 

I am going to be leaning towards a system that is fully taped and sealed. 

 

Opinions. 

[Barney12]

Ref the journalist; who for fecks sake is dragged out of the pub by her son as the front of their terrace has collapsed but then quickly proceeds to go back to the pub and tweet about it?? 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Barney12
Typo

[Ferdinand]

@recoveringacademic

 

Good thread.

 

On average we are all wrong most of the time :-).

 

I genuinely do not understand how the American regulatory system for buildings works, except I expect it is at a State level since their climactic conditions vary as much as across the whole of Europe including to the Urals and down to the Sahara. Presumably building in Alaska is a bit different to building in Arizona or Texas.

 

F

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The US system of building codes and inspections is pretty similar to that in the UK in general.  There are big differences associated with the fact that timber has pretty much always been a very common building material in the US, with millions of homes being of all-timber construction.  I believe they suffer from the same sort of problems as we do when fashions change and new methods of construction and finishing are used, though.  The example here of stucco directly on to a timber frame is typical.  Stucco was a finish applied to mud and concrete structures in the main, but fashion dictated that people in areas where timber structure was more usual wanted to use this as a finish, instead of the more normal weatherboarding/siding.  There was a lack of knowledge about the impact of doing this, so problems have arisen.

 

You could make exactly the same arguments about the first use of mass constructed timber frame houses in England.  The first contractor to build these, because of the speed and cost advantage mainly, got caught out badly when the frames started rotting after 10 to 15 years.  The cause was a failure to understand the way water vapour moves through materials and the large amount of energy needed to change condensed water back to water vapour.  As a consequence we're now all more aware of the need to ensure that water vapour movement is properly controlled, and that the risk of interstitial condensation, particularly at critical points like a cold sole plate, is mitigated.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by JSHarris

[ProDave]

I have to respond to this thread as my house is "stucco" onto the timber frame, well sort of. If I am to believe the doomsayers in this thread then in 20 years there will be a soggy rotten mess behind my "stucco"  I sincerely hope not.

 

I am not expecting my render to crack, mainly due to part of the application process being to roll a sheet of fibreglass mesh into the wet render and trowel it in to bind the whole lot together.

 

The poor detail in this instance as far as I could tell was no window cills, and the waterproofing membrane around the windows wrongly detailed so instead of water running off in front of the render with a proper cill and drip bead, it ran behind it and even behind the tyvek.

 

Re wood windows Vs ali clad.  Our previous house had wood windows. At 15 years old they are still sound and solid. My only objection to wooden windows is the need to re paint or varnish them regularly, which is why this time I have chosen ali clad.  If the owner of that house had maintained the windows, they would have spotted the problems sooner and been able to fix them sooner and easier.

[Russell griffiths]

I would think @ProDave this is a different system to yours, correct me if I'm wrong but your wood fibre board it waterproof, whereas the osb is like a big sponge. 

 

 

Im going to put my hard hat on now?But this video shows why I dislike sips, relying on two sheets of osb as your main structure doesn't add up to me. Sorry. 

[ProDave]

Yes the wood fibre board has a waterproof coating. It can be left exposed for a certain length of time, though not permanently. So a very worst case is replace the wood fibre board and re render if anything did happen.

 

Even most timber frames rely on OSB or ply sheeting for the racking strength, so no different to SIPS if that gets wet and rotten. Most timber frames have te racking layer on the outside, but In my case it's mostly 2 layers of OSB on the inside of the frame structure so less likely to get saturated and rot if there was a leak.