Bats & Newts

[MDC]

I've recently put in a planning application for a replacement dwelling. The planning dept., want an ecology survey. The Ecologist turned up today full of bad news, such as there could be bats, so a survey will have to be done of the roof and hanging tiles of the property to be demolished - this can't happen until mid-May next year, which fills me with gloom.

 

I asked why I couldn't just put in a roosting box for the bats, which opened up a whole bat cave of choices and what ifs, and type of bat needs this and another needs that, and so on. 

 

So, I wonder if anyone would like to share their stories of bats/newts/ecology surveys and planning permissions to give me an idea of what lies ahead. Thank you!

[patp]

These ecologists like to make work for themselves. When Anglian Water were surveying for the installation of a main sewer in our village we had a visit from the ecologists. There is a, natural, pond on our property. They were looking for Great Crested Newts and paid regular visits to try to spot any. We forbade them entry in the end because they were turning up at gone 10 pm with a whoosh of gravel on our driveway, then made their way to the pond through our back gates without a by your leave. Goodness knows what they were charging AW! They took no notice of us telling them that the pond had the water from a leaking artesian well running through it which rendered it much too cold a habitat for newts! 

 

Good luck with the bats. We do have them around here (sshhh) but we, somehow, evaded them sending out a bat detector.

 

[Sport]

A developer here who at this point remains nameless along with our County Council have been economical with the truth, Licenses for newts have been obtained then amended without the knowledge of Natural England, before being approved by the planners so as to benefit the developer by avoiding the financial liabilities of the Licenses. This is now a criminal investigation. I will be VERY interested to see if the developer is EVER prosecuted by Natural England. Problem is we have the photographs / video of what has been going on and ignored by the Planners who are set to receive a 1 million + payment for allowing this development.

Basically, a private individual is pays the price Big companies do as they please, we obtained under a Freedom of Information request all documents relating to the licenses and basically, they contained not one word of truth!

[nod]

Its like taking your car in to Quik fit 

and asking them to check everything 

They are looking to make work 

Most offer a bronze silver and Gold survey Each time I say just get me through planning 

You need to be quite firm with them 

Tell them May isn’t any good for you 

Would they tell Red Row to hang on til may

I asked ours to edit his report Or I would pay 

[MDC]

I just got a quote for the bat survey: £3889 + Vat!! 

 

I'm stunned! If the planners decide they want to check the newts too, I can double that. I hope we can get the planning permission before the bat survey. Otherwise, the gamble becomes more and more expensive with a risk of no return on the investment.

[MDC]

4 hours ago, nod said:

Its like taking your car in to Quik fit 

and asking them to check everything 

They are looking to make work 

Most offer a bronze silver and Gold survey Each time I say just get me through planning 

You need to be quite firm with them 

Tell them May isn’t any good for you 

Would they tell Red Row to hang on til may

I asked ours to edit his report Or I would pay 

I'm told May is when the bats turn up. I hope it doesn't delay the planning permission.

[MDC]

5 hours ago, patp said:

These ecologists like to make work for themselves. When Anglian Water were surveying for the installation of a main sewer in our village we had a visit from the ecologists. There is a, natural, pond on our property. They were looking for Great Crested Newts and paid regular visits to try to spot any. We forbade them entry in the end because they were turning up at gone 10 pm with a whoosh of gravel on our driveway, then made their way to the pond through our back gates without a by your leave. Goodness knows what they were charging AW! They took no notice of us telling them that the pond had the water from a leaking artesian well running through it which rendered it much too cold a habitat for newts! 

 

Good luck with the bats. We do have them around here (sshhh) but we, somehow, evaded them sending out a bat detector.

 

It seems like it is going to cost more money than sense!

[Canski]

9 minutes ago, MDC said:

I just got a quote for the bat survey: £3889 + Vat!! 

 

I'm stunned! If the planners decide they want to check the newts too, I can double that. I hope we can get the planning permission before the bat survey. Otherwise, the gamble becomes more and more expensive with a risk of no return on the investment.

I paid 750 plus vat for 4 surveys. Plus 700 for an initial ecology survey. I was there for the duration of the first three. Three of which they found nothing but they did invent a swift entering the property which didn’t happen. I know cos I was there. They wanted a late season survey at the end of august and after removing his sheet from the loft that was clear of droppings he resigned himself to thinking that there were no bats and it had all been a waste of time. Feeling somewhat relieved I headed for the pub it was while I was gone that they spotted all the bats. It’s bullshit. Now I need a bat licence at a cost of 3 - 4 k 

 

my advice is don’t leave them there on their own. 

[nod]

1 hour ago, Canski said:

I paid 750 plus vat for 4 surveys. Plus 700 for an initial ecology survey. I was there for the duration of the first three. Three of which they found nothing but they did invent a swift entering the property which didn’t happen. I know cos I was there. They wanted a late season survey at the end of august and after removing his sheet from the loft that was clear of droppings he resigned himself to thinking that there were no bats and it had all been a waste of time. Feeling somewhat relieved I headed for the pub it was while I was gone that they spotted all the bats. It’s bullshit. Now I need a bat licence at a cost of 3 - 4 k 

 

my advice is don’t leave them there on their own. 

We were also told a late season survey would be required I said that I’d get someone else 

They then said early season would be ok 

[Jilly]

It can be worth getting a second opinion on the bats. Local enthusiasts sometimes do surveys very reasonably, but I'm not sure if they can count as official surveys. You can also discuss/negotiate the mitigation plan they come up with to better suit the building. I didn't know any of this and spent about £6K (I weep to think of it) all told on surveys/natural England licence etc. I was present at the hand strip of the building and we found one bat which flew off and didn't make use of the posh box provided for it. 

 

I have a friend with a pond and the surveyor found a single GCN egg (which my friend was obviously suspicious of!) and they spent many thousands on surveys and a building a hibernacula. 

 

I want garden pond, but I am worried about encouraging the wrong type of newts if I build a garage.

 

Apparently they can now do a DNA test of the pond water for GCNs which saves a fortune in surveys. 

 

 

[MDC]

14 hours ago, Jilly said:

It can be worth getting a second opinion on the bats. Local enthusiasts sometimes do surveys very reasonably, but I'm not sure if they can count as official surveys. You can also discuss/negotiate the mitigation plan they come up with to better suit the building. I didn't know any of this and spent about £6K (I weep to think of it) all told on surveys/natural England licence etc. I was present at the hand strip of the building and we found one bat which flew off and didn't make use of the posh box provided for it. 

 

I have a friend with a pond and the surveyor found a single GCN egg (which my friend was obviously suspicious of!) and they spent many thousands on surveys and a building a hibernacula. 

 

I want garden pond, but I am worried about encouraging the wrong type of newts if I build a garage.

 

Apparently they can now do a DNA test of the pond water for GCNs which saves a fortune in surveys. 

 

 

 Nice! You're joking about the DNA, right??

 

My son [who knows about this sort of thing] tells me bats and newts can stop road building projects! Now that is power eh! He has suggested making sure there are no bats [and newts] anywhere on site before the next survey. I don't even know if there are bats about, but it seems to be that roof tiles and hanging tiles = bats. So, bat prevention perhaps is the way forward.

 

Thank you for your comment.

[Canski]

Actually they wanted to send my bat poop off for DNA analysis to determine the species of bat but chose the £200 option of putting a sheet in the loft for me. Then failed to close the loft hatch which led to starlings entering the house form the roof and becoming trapped and dying. I am saving this fact and the date stamped photos as my 'big bill for bat licence submission' mitigation.

[MDC]

4 hours ago, Canski said:

Actually they wanted to send my bat poop off for DNA analysis to determine the species of bat but chose the £200 option of putting a sheet in the loft for me. Then failed to close the loft hatch which led to starlings entering the house form the roof and becoming trapped and dying. I am saving this fact and the date stamped photos as my 'big bill for bat licence submission' mitigation.

Sounds very chaotic. And DNA is a thing for bats - I've learnt something.

[Jilly]

I'm pretty sure it's correct that the pond water can be tested for GCN DNA to save having surveys. 

 

Be careful, it's a criminal offence to injure/kill protected species such as bats and GCN. Even putting up exclusion fences needs a licence.

 

I saw an article in the Telegraph about someone who developed his barns and spent £10K on bat mitigation, so be prepared. 

[Canski]

3 hours ago, Jilly said:

 

 

I saw an article in the Telegraph about someone who developed his barns and spent £10K on bat mitigation, so be prepared. 

If my section 106 doesn't get sorted before May I'll be well over that before I'm finished.

 

[SteamyTea]

On 01/12/2022 at 10:32, MDC said:

You're joking about the DNA

Used a lot in environmental surveys.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-49495145

 

 

[Barryscotland]

There’s set guidelines (at least in Scotland) as to whether you need a bat survey or not. We did as the house we where demolishing had a slate roof and stone gable, in hind site the roof should of “fell in” before we put in for planning as it would of saved a year or delay waiting on the right time of year for the surveys etc and a chunk of money. We found that most bat people are quite literally nutz about bats however we where luckily pointed in the direction of a bat surveyor who was doing it as a job and not a passion.

Bats where just the start of our tick the box and deplete the savings exercises, tree surveys, archeological surveys etc 

worth it in the end but keeping alot of in my opinion pointless people in a job

[patp]

Yes, I agree. We wanted to use an existing farm track to access our new build. It had been in use for hundreds of years by all sorts of farm machinery. Of course when we wanted to include it as our access road we were asked to get a tree survey done followed by a report on whether root guards would be needed etc etc etc. We put our "official" driveway over the other side of the plot. We still had a fight over the "visibility splay" which was well within the legal limit. They look on google earth and tell us "no - splay not wide enough". We had to stamp our feet and get them to actually come out with a tape measure before we could get on with it!

[saveasteading]

Bars I can't help with, except agree the advice above to get help from a bat expert,  not enthusiast. 

 

For GCN I can help.

I've done maybe 6 or 7 planning apps where newts were likely. In no cases did we do a survey  at great expense, or relocate newts (at great expense).  Who does the survey, makes the recommendations and then does the work? Yes, so don't go there. 

 

We always just accepted that there were newts, which we loved and respected, so no point in catching them. 

Any expert knows that newts are all in the water at a certain period, so that is when you strip the ground. Sorted.

Except some  'experts' may forget to mention that option.

[Post and beam]

I have very recently had the following....

AIA: Arborial impact assessment

PEA: Preliminary ecological assessment and Bat roost survey( none thank Fek!)

Reptile mitigation plan

 

I thought there were options for the Bat survey such that the timing through the year should not unduly hold up your plans. Certainly did not pay anything like £3800 for the Bat thing. Thats painful.

 

I still need to get an archeaological survey which apparently cannot be done until/unless i get full planning permission.

[Canski]

35 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

I thought there were options for the Bat survey such that the timing through the year should not unduly hold up your plans. Certainly did not pay anything like £3800 for the Bat thing. Thats painful.

 

I'm at £4500 inc Vat now. PEA and bat roost survey £780 4 surveys through the year @ £870 each = £3480 Putting a sheet in my loft and forgetting to close the hatch leading to the death of several starlings £240. Oh and I couldn't get planning until these are complete or the councils environmental officer would have had it thrown out. Now I await my section 106 agreement. 4 weeks and counting. When I get that I can apply for a bat mitigation licence a cost of around £2100. I'm sure they want to push me into another season of bat surveys. I'm not sure how I react to that if it happens.

 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Canski said:

I'm not sure how I react to that if it happens.

You write a polite but firm letter saying that they have had enough time and opportunity,  and already been paid £4,500, and that this appears to be not so much a service as an open ended opportunity. And whag is thd process for disputing this?

Have a word with their competitors if necessary.

 

 

[Canski]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

You write a polite but firm letter saying that they have had enough time and opportunity,  and already been paid £4,500, and that this appears to be not so much a service as an open ended opportunity. And whag is thd process for disputing this?

Have a word with their competitors if necessary.

 

 

But it’s the council holding things up now not Batman and Robbing. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Canski said:

not Batman and Robbing. 

OK. Misread. So an email to the council, confirming what has been done and the expense, and asking them to confirm that the survey is complete. They might not answer but you tried, and that can count.

[ToughButterCup]

On 30/11/2022 at 11:48, MDC said:

....

 

So, I wonder if anyone would like to share their stories of bats/newts/ecology surveys and planning permissions to give me an idea of what lies ahead. Thank you!

 

Summary: Delay your project by one year. In that year, kill the wildlife. Then get the ecologist back. 

 

What sort of idiot posts that kind of nonsense?

 

I'm not an idiot. But that is the truthful sum of my experience in three sentences. That is what happens locally: I have seen local farmers  do that. I have talked to the ecologists who have worked on those farms, I have talked to the farmers. I know them well enough for our dogs to be on good arse-sniffing terms

 

I have bitter experience of following the ecology guidelines to-the-letter, (I'm German - zero imagination in relation to telling the authorities to get stuffed) and watching a neighbour take all the information I paid for (£2500 worth of work) and apply it to his own Planning Application - then submit that stolen information (plagiarised?)  to a different Ecologist, and get a recommendation for a RAMS (Reasonable Attenuation Statement - cost? a few quid) - whereas I had to spend about £6000 sorting it all out. 

 

Having thus raised my BP to 190 over 60, here's a reading list for you.

 

I am not arguing you should kill any wildlife. Ever. 

 

Can't take a joke? Don't apply for planning permission.