7.5 kw setup self install help needed

[bertybuttface]

On 29/11/2022 at 08:53, Dillsue said:

How are you going to prove it?

 

From conversations Ive had with our DNO the way that they expect you to prove it is make a G99/G100 application and they then come out and witness the limitation system, all chargeable!

I'm not personally attempting to do so but a couple of options spring to mind:

 

1. Some inverters have cloud monitoring, this data is tamper proof as it is stored on the suppliers cloud (SolarEdge do this).

2. Some meters track export, they could interrogate your smart meter, this should be somewhat tamper proof.

3. You might have fitted your own meter, some of them can only be completely reset not modified as they are used as revenue meters.

A terrible 4th option (don't actually do this) would be to make sure the cable is rated for the limited export power but not beyond. You could then cause a fire at your house with the wrong settings but you could never (expletive deleted) with the DNO.
 

Edited November 30, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Dillsue]

12 minutes ago, bertybuttface said:

I'm not personally attempting to do so but a couple of options spring to mind:

 

1. Some inverters have cloud monitoring, this data is tamper proof as it is stored on the suppliers cloud (SolarEdge do this).

2. Some meters track export, they could interrogate your smart meter, this should be somewhat tamper proof.

3. You might have fitted your own meter, some of them can only be completely reset not modified as they are used as revenue meters.

A terrible 4th option (don't actually do this) would be to make sure the cable is rated for the limited export power but not beyond. You could then cause a fire at your house with the wrong settings but you could never (expletive deleted) with the DNO.
 

Any or all of those options may work but how are you going to prove they work if not done through a G99/G100?

[bertybuttface]

On 30/11/2022 at 15:10, Dillsue said:

Any or all of those options may work but how are you going to prove they work if not done through a G99/G100?

 

Obligatory I am not a lawyer and this is probably bollocks disclaimers nonetheless but I just don't get how they can now start charging people to prove that they are already doing the right thing. Especially for someone not exporting at all.

 

If they keep this up they will just push people towards disconnecting from the grid entirely and using batteries for 6 months of the year.

The export rate is already a joke for those fitting solar today.

Edited December 1, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Dillsue]

3 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

I just don't get how they can now start charging people to prove that they are already doing the right thing. Especially for someone not exporting at all

If your connected to the grid with something that should have permission, then youre not "doing the right thing".

 

The "right thing" is to submit an application, seemingly with some DNOs not charging. If you are actually doing the right thing then your application will get approved. 

 

[TonyT]

Go down the DC charging route for the batteries and no DNO involvement 

[umer]

8 hours ago, TonyT said:

Go down the DC charging route for the batteries and no DNO involvement 

Will this mean I won't be able to charge the batteries from mains at all?

[umer]

It's a bit of topic but I have just been quoted 1000 pounds install cost to install a 500 pounds air conditioner. That 1500 total. It's a simple back to back install. Hardly a two hour job. What is going on

[Radian]

6 minutes ago, umer said:

Hardly a two hour job

I've recently had a couple of A2A units installed and 2 guys spent a day and a half working hard to do it. I don't see where your two hours as being particularly realistic.

[mike2016]

If it's a Mr. Cool pre charged system and you can comfortably run the condensate drain and electrics to the unit then it might be two hours. A mate did one for a converted garage he lives in. But installers are assuming they'll need an electrician and possibly a plumber in addition to their services, travel, call out charge and any other physical obstacles that might delay them and require returning to site to fix any issues. And insurance, pension etc. Lots of overheads for even a small job for a single A2A unit. I always start out thinking a DIY job is simple but am regularly surprised by how much detail and effort it actually takes!  

[umer]

2 hours ago, Radian said:

I've recently had a couple of A2A units installed and 2 guys spent a day and a half working hard to do it. I don't see where your two hours as being particularly realistic

There is two feet distance between the outer unit and inner. Outer unit on the floor as well as inter unit. So just a hole in wall and the gas connection they have to do. I have seen this type of install many times and it does literally takes two hours. 

 

[TonyT]

Your paying for their experience.

[bertybuttface]

On 01/12/2022 at 22:06, Dillsue said:

If your connected to the grid with something that should have permission, then youre not "doing the right thing".

 

The "right thing" is to submit an application, seemingly with some DNOs not charging. If you are actually doing the right thing then your application will get approved. 

 

 

If you aren't exporting power I just don't see how it has anything to do with the DNO whatsoever. Presuming your inverter meets the required standards there is no safety issue. Charging you for the privilege of you telling them you aren't exporting is bullshit. If they really insist on knowing the very least they could do is not charge.

Edit: correct me if I am wrong here but the only downside to not having a G99 certificate is you can't get SEG. Why anyone would want to export at 3.4p per kWh is beyond me. I'd rather turn the immersion heater on or charge a battery. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by bertybuttface

[bertybuttface]

@umerDiamond core cutters aren't cheap but once you've got one jobs like this are suddenly rather simple. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Radian]

1 hour ago, bertybuttface said:

Edit: correct me if I am wrong here but the only downside to not having a G99 certificate is you can't get SEG.

 

You're wrong. When you take out a contract for your electricity supply, the contract is a legal document and you will find that you are only entitled to import power, and may only export power with consent.

 

This is because the networks just can't handle arbitrary amounts of power. The G98 certificate covers installations that do not create a challenge by virtue of being limited to 3680W. This is a bit like diversity in reverse. The sizing of cables and transformers can be expected to cope with this amount of power being simultaneously consumed from a substation. When more generation is proposed, the G99 application has to be submitted and assessed in order to ensure that the network infrastructure is up to it. Hence the application may be rejected for good reason.

[S2D2]

2 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

Why anyone would want to export at 3.4p per kWh is beyond me. I'd rather turn the immersion heater on or charge a battery. 

Octopus currently pay 15p/kWh, so more lucrative than offsetting gas (for now).

[bertybuttface]

13 hours ago, Radian said:

 

You're wrong. When you take out a contract for your electricity supply, the contract is a legal document and you will find that you are only entitled to import power, and may only export power with consent.

 

This is because the networks just can't handle arbitrary amounts of power. The G98 certificate covers installations that do not create a challenge by virtue of being limited to 3680W. This is a bit like diversity in reverse. The sizing of cables and transformers can be expected to cope with this amount of power being simultaneously consumed from a substation. When more generation is proposed, the G99 application has to be submitted and assessed in order to ensure that the network infrastructure is up to it. Hence the application may be rejected for good reason.

 

I'm suggesting not exporting at all. That means the network won't need to handle any power whatsoever. Other than not being able to get SEG there doesn't seem to be any need to get a G98 if you aren't exporting. Unless you know something I don't?

[bertybuttface]

12 hours ago, S2D2 said:

Octopus currently pay 15p/kWh, so more lucrative than offsetting gas (for now).

 

Wow they've upped that since I last looked, nice, almost triple the rate of anyone else.

The only issues being it only seems to be available on Agile Export, not any of their economy 7 tariffs and you need a smart meter so if you are in a poor mobile coverage area like we are you are out of luck. You also can't mix and match with their EV tariff.

[SteamyTea]

15 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

Edit: correct me if I am wrong here but the only downside to not having a G99 certificate is you can't get SEG.

Then do as you want to and elicit a challenge the DNO to prove you wrong.

Just don't come crying when they tell you to disconnect, and possibly fine you.

If you want to play the game, stick to the rules.

15 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

Why anyone would want to export at 3.4p per kWh is beyond me. I'd rather turn the immersion heater on or charge a battery. 

And wen they are full at about 10 AM in June you are then in effect getting nothing.

Fair enough, but I would like to get something for my efforts.

[bertybuttface]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Then do as you want to and elicit a challenge the DNO to prove you wrong.

Just don't come crying when they tell you to disconnect, and possibly fine you.

I've looked (again not a lawyer) and I can't find anything about fines. You are correct that they can threaten to disconnect you if you don't put in a G99/G100 but they can usually be done after installation anyway so just put one in if they give you any crap.

If they didn't start charging for a G99/G100 we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. It is an anti-competitive stealth charge on microgeneration and its bullshit. Especially that some have to pay and others don't.

 

In June if your battery is full by 10AM it is very likely that either you have over specced your panels for your needs or you are using gas water heating. It also gives you a budget for air conditioning. Sure everyone is different, that's great, some can pay for the G99/G100, others don't have to. There are plenty of people with solar that don't export anything, why should they be forced to pay for an export license? 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Dillsue]

The DNO is interested in safety of the grid, which includes controlling whats connected to it for the benefit of everyone. You might see them as a pain in the butt but consider a couple of scenarios that G98/G99 ensure dont become problems.

 

One of your family needs sensitive medical equipment and has some in the house. Living down your street are a load of reckless PV cowboys who've connected 10s of KW of PV without giving a hoot about what it might do to the neighbours medical equipment. Sunny day in June and the cowboys PV export pushes the voltage way past the UK limit and your medical equipment shuts down.

 

Another scenario. Same PV cowboys install cheap Chinese inverters that aren't type tested and no one checks because theres no G98/G99. Turns out they dont actually disconnect from the grid when theres a power cut. Come the first daytime power cut and the repair linesmen find theres still 240vac on the faulty lines because of the PV cowboys inverters. Despite having the option to earth the live lines they decide to investigate the source before making a repair. The power is off to your house for significantly longer than it need be until they find the PV cowboys non compliant inverters and shut them down.

 

Both hypothetical scenarios but you'll hopefully see that theres more to G98/G99 than DNOs just being awkward

[bertybuttface]

On 05/12/2022 at 19:30, Dillsue said:

The DNO is interested in safety of the grid, which includes controlling whats connected to it for the benefit of everyone. You might see them as a pain in the butt but consider a couple of scenarios that G98/G99 ensure dont become problems.

 

One of your family needs sensitive medical equipment and has some in the house. Living down your street are a load of reckless PV cowboys who've connected 10s of KW of PV without giving a hoot about what it might do to the neighbours medical equipment. Sunny day in June and the cowboys PV export pushes the voltage way past the UK limit and your medical equipment shuts down.

 

Another scenario. Same PV cowboys install cheap Chinese inverters that aren't type tested and no one checks because theres no G98/G99. Turns out they dont actually disconnect from the grid when theres a power cut. Come the first daytime power cut and the repair linesmen find theres still 240vac on the faulty lines because of the PV cowboys inverters. Despite having the option to earth the live lines they decide to investigate the source before making a repair. The power is off to your house for significantly longer than it need be until they find the PV cowboys non compliant inverters and shut them down.

 

Both hypothetical scenarios but you'll hopefully see that theres more to G98/G99 than DNOs just being awkward

 

If it is such a vital service then charging for it (and ultimately lowering uptake) is an incredibly irresponsible move for them to take.

Both of your examples are convoluted to the point of irrelevance. If you are using an inverter from a reputable manufacturer and you aren't exporting there is absolutely zero possibility of either of them occurring.

[joth]

8 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

If you are using an inverter from a reputable manufacturer and you aren't exporting there is absolutely zero possibility of either of them occurring.

What do you mean by "you aren't exporting"?

Even if you're not being paid for export, and plan to self consume as much as possible, there's always some amount of export happening on a grid tied inverter from time to time

[Dillsue]

8 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

 

If it is such a vital service then charging for it (and ultimately lowering uptake) is an incredibly irresponsible move for them to take.

What! The vital service that everyone enjoys is a grid connection and the ability to use electric when they want(importing). Having a PV system connected to the grid isn't a vital thing to have, it's wholly optional

 

The last thing any of us want are free spirits doing their own thing, circumventing the rules and connecting unapproved equipment to the grid. If you dont like the rules go off grid and do your own thing.

 

Remember that a typical PV install is £1000s so a G99 application at £0-300 is peanuts

[Dillsue]

8 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

If you are using an inverter from a reputable manufacturer and you aren't exporting there is absolutely zero possibility of either of them occurring.

And Ill ask yet again, how are you going to prove that?

 

All the DNOs want is a bit of dialogue with you to ensure that your claimed safe system is actually that.

[jack]

On 05/12/2022 at 14:22, bertybuttface said:

I've looked (again not a lawyer) and I can't find anything about fines. You are correct that they can threaten to disconnect you if you don't put in a G99/G100 but they can usually be done after installation anyway so just put one in if they give you any crap.

 

I'm not a lawyer either, but the second result for Googling "fines for exporting electricity" gives this:

 

https://www.deif.com/land-power/cases/avoid-power-export-fines

 

 

On 05/12/2022 at 14:22, bertybuttface said:

In June if your battery is full by 10AM it is very likely that either you have over specced your panels for your needs or you are using gas water heating.

 

But systems aren't specced to avoid overcapacity in the middle of June. I don't have batteries, but with 8.5 kW of PV, our immersion diverter regularly maxes out our hot water cylinder by late morning though the sunniest months of the year. Yet we averaged less than 7 kWh/day in November, and I expect December to be far worse than that. Similar principles apply for batteries.