Combimate water "softener"—opinions?

[Polly]

It can be both, Dreadnaught. Is Wikipedia not sometimes King of Psuedo Science itself?

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, Polly said:

 

I do not claim that magnets release chemicals into the water.

 

 

Yes you did.  Your statement was unequivocal, and stated that:

 

Quote

It is the only system in the UK that doesn't release chemicals into your water, whilst using no energy.

 

 

2 hours ago, Polly said:

 

Nor do I claim that sacrificial anodes use power.

 

 

I did not say they did - you wrote that permanent magnets used power, I asked for proof, which has not been forthcoming.  What you wrote was (my highlight of your text):

 

 

2 hours ago, Polly said:

- Permanent magnet "water conditioners" - These use power and do not, in our experience, have a successful anecdotal record

 

 

Please explain where the power comes from in a permanent magnet "water conditioner".  I want specifics, staying within the laws of physics, please, as you have been very clear in stating that these devices "use power" , and I'm keen to understand where you believe the power comes from in a permanent magnet.

 

 

2 hours ago, Polly said:

- Alternating electric/magnetic field "water conditioners" - These use power

 

 

I didn't question this.  What I wrote was this, and I'd like an answer please as to what chemicals such devices release into the water supply:

 

Quote

I'm not questioning that at all.  I specifically wished to know, as per the above question, what chemicals these devices release into the water supply, as you have claimed.

 

Also, please note that I very specifically stated that I was not including any "water conditioner" that used a replaceable component, and went further and specifically mentioned excluding devices that used zinc or any other soluble component.

 

Can we please stick to hard facts, backed by known science, and not try to dodge the questions being asked.

 

 

 

[jack]

You've mentioned a patent - could you supply details please?

[Polly]

Thank you Jack but that is certainly commercially sensitive and not something the company will share on a public forum. 

I am here from Product Support to quell myths on the system and aid understanding amongst the relevant market.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, Polly said:

Thank you Jack but that is certainly commercially sensitive and not something the company will share on a public forum. 

I am here from Product Support to quell myths on the system and aid understanding amongst the relevant market.

 

How can a patent be commercially sensitive - they are all in the public domain, even my own from decades ago.  Anyone can search for patents here if they wish: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/

[Polly]

JSHarris I fear that our debate between the two of us is becoming a distraction to the overall discussion.

I will gladly answer your specific queries between ourselves; please email me at info@halcyanwater.com. I appreciate the issues you are raising in a difficult market.

[Guest Alphonsox]

14 minutes ago, jack said:

You've mentioned a patent - could you supply details please?

 

Original patent is here, Expired in 2006

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/applicationDetails.do?applicationNo=1987070484

[Guest Alphonsox]

4 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

 

Original patent is here, Expired in 2006

http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/applicationDetails.do?applicationNo=1987070484

 

And another couple of similar from the US

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060175255

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7547413

[Jeremy Harris]

17 minutes ago, Polly said:

JSHarris I fear that our debate between the two of us is becoming a distraction to the overall discussion.

I will gladly answer your specific queries between ourselves; please email me at info@halcyanwater.com. I appreciate the issues you are raising in a difficult market.

 

 

No, you made written statements on a public forum, therefore it is only fair and reasonable that valid questions about the truth of those published statements from your company must also be on the same public forum.

 

I'll keep it simple, just answer two points, please:

 

1.  You stated, in answer to a point I raised about there being other "water conditioners" on the market that did not release chemicals into the water, that permanent magnet water conditioners use power.  I would like to to be able to examine the supporting evidence for that statement, please.  Anything will do, as long as it's from a peer reviewed source.

 

2. You clearly and unequivocally published a statement that your product was the "only system in the UK that doesn't release chemicals into your water, whilst using no energy."  I gave examples of other types of "water conditioner" that uses no energy, specifically permanent magnet and other "catalytic type" units (with no soluble or reactive components), and asked you specifically what chemicals these released into the water.  Again, just quoting a peer reviewed source to support your statement will be fine by way of an answer.

[pdf27]

Full patent below, downloaded from Espacenet. Number doesn't match but inventors, title and date do.

 

Having read the patent I'm none the wiser as to how it is supposed to work.

AU580474B2.pdf

 

Edit: for clarity, this is the expired Australian patent mentioned by @Alphonsox

Edited August 10, 2018 by pdf27

[Nickfromwales]

13 minutes ago, Polly said:

Thank you Jack but that is certainly commercially sensitive and not something the company will share on a public forum. 

I am here from Product Support to quell myths on the system and aid understanding amongst the relevant market.

Does the product, or does the product not have a current patent ?

 

NOTE : There have been some requests to have this thread moderated. Until there is a breach of BH T&C's the content can stand. It's a healthy debate at the moment and will be of value to anyone else considering buying this product. 

If it is decided that a certain number of magic beans have been discussed, and nothing of factual content brought to the exchange to the contrary, then this thread will be edited back to whenst it came. 

Mods. 

 

In the meantime, let's keep it above the belt and factual. 

?

[Nickfromwales]

Crossed with @pdf27

[pdf27]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Does the product, or does the product not have a current patent ?

There are no patents listed on Espacenet owned by Halcyan - https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?ST=singleline&locale=en_EP&submitted=true&DB=&query=halcyan

This doesn't exclude the possibility of them licensing the IP from someone else.

[jack]

13 minutes ago, Polly said:

Thank you Jack but that is certainly commercially sensitive and not something the company will share on a public forum. 

I am here from Product Support to quell myths on the system and aid understanding amongst the relevant market.

 

The phrase "patented" when used by a UK-based company does not mean "there were patents, but they were in other countries, were in the names of another entity, and lapsed over 10 years ago".

 

Patents are by definition public documents, and anyone saying they have a patent while refusing to give details is either lying or woefully ignorant about what having a patent actually means.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

To illustrate @jacks point, and to show how easy it is to do a patent search, here are some links to old patents where I was the inventor, or shared the invention with a colleague (I just searched on my name and they all popped up):

 

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19920909&CC=GB&NR=2253376A&KC=A#

 

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19901219&CC=GB&NR=2232647A&KC=A#

 

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19920624&CC=GB&NR=2250960A&KC=A#

 

Like @pdf27, I can't find any patent listed under the given company name in this debate, so have to assume that there isn't one.  The implication is that the company promoting their product here have got no patent for it, are using an invention from an expired patent, or are licensing the IP.

[Mr Punter]

An interesting discussion in an product area full of half truths and pseudo science. I have installed the electro magnet type and recently had some Combimates installed on recommendation from @richi.  It does look as if the claims that @Polly makes regarding product uniqueness in energy use and non-release of chemicals may be hard to justify but I would be interested to see any actual scientific research on the reduction in limescale on boilers, kettles etc.

[Polly]

Thank you all for your queries. Any that are likely to bring about further detailed questions, I would suggest to get in touch with me directly on info@halcyanwater.com to avoid narrowing quite a broad discussion.

 

The results of the system itself are tangible and the claims we make, as to no use of power, no use of chemicals etc, true.

The Halcyan is uniquely environmentally friendly and I am reluctant for it to be drawn in with comparisons with other similar options on the market, which do not provide such specific benefits.

 

Please keep coming with questions on the system! I have a scientific background and can assure you all of my dedication to facts in this market.

 

Thanks,

 

P

[Jeremy Harris]

58 minutes ago, Polly said:

It can be both, Dreadnaught. Is Wikipedia not sometimes King of Psuedo Science itself?

 

If anyone believes that a Wikipedia entry is in error, they are free to edit it in accordance with Wikipedia's editing guidelines.  Any edit will be peer reviewed (as peer review is the key philosophy behind trying to keep Wikipedia accurate and truthful).

 

I suggest that you, @Polly, edit the Wikipedia entry to align with your findings with regard to forms of aragonite that you state your unit produces when water containing other forms of CaCO₃ passes through it.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, Polly said:

Please keep coming with questions on the system! I have a scientific background and can assure you all of my dedication to facts in this market.

 

Thanks,

 

P

 

Given that you are also a scientist, can you please just answer my questions about your published statements in this post, please, as I feel very strongly that such statements of apparent scientific fact need to be answered:

 

 

[jack]

8 minutes ago, Polly said:

I have a scientific background 

 

Short of a chemistry or physics degree with a relevant specialisation, I can't see that you're really in a position to meaningfully argue the science behind this product. Do you have one of those? If not, what sort of "background" are we talking that means we should rely on what you're saying?

[Mr Punter]

I liked that Combimate guarantee "when used with Combiphos, that if the unit it is protecting experiences significant scaling, we will contribute up to £500 towards the cost of repair or replacement."  As they are part of  Cistermiser I think that the guarantee is worth something.

[Declan52]

??

[Jeremy Harris]

19 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I liked that Combimate guarantee "when used with Combiphos, that if the unit it is protecting experiences significant scaling, we will contribute up to £500 towards the cost of repair or replacement."  As they are part of  Cistermiser I think that the guarantee is worth something.

 

There's no doubt that phosphate dosing can work pretty well, so that guarantee doesn't surprise me at all.  I think we need to really separate out the elements of this thread that relate to other "water conditioning" products, so that products that have been scientifically tested and proven to work as advertised don't get confused with products that are, at best, lacking in hard scientific evidence that they reduce levels of CaCO₃, or that changing the specific form of CaCO₃ somehow reduces water hardness (it does not at all, and I'll gladly come and do a water hardness test for anyone that believes they do).

[lizzie]

The proof of the pudding guys....whatever the science I dont care I have much nicer water with my Halcyon than without.  

 

Having thought about it since the earlier post I realised that my Halcyon is fitted in the plant room so its all indoor water on that and all garden water is straight from the main so if I was inclined one day when I have ‘finished’ I I could sample the two...sample in usage not science I mean. I was banned from the science lab at school.....too much of a danger LOL

[richi]

Let's review.

1. New member revives months-old thread to say positive things about a product in which she has an interest (presumably as a result of Googling the product name)
2. Genuine questions are asked
3. Questions are politely dodged
4. Questions are dodged again
5. Questions are dodged a third time
6. Mods rule it's popcorn time

Aside from our own amusement-bordering-on-trolling, why are we continuing to engage here? I get that @lizzie likes her unit, and that's cool, but we need a 3-strikes rule or something.