Combimate water "softener"—opinions?

[richi]

3 hours ago, jack said:

In my opinion, the document you supplied isn't evidence that would be accepted by anyone with a scientific background. Science aside, it involves a test (not "tests") that happened over 30 years ago, and the original documents upon which it is based are very unlikely to be available for cross-checking.

 

Was this the Canadian test of surface tension?

[jack]

No, it's extracts from comments made in relation to a single test performed on a single installed unit (+ control installation) in Australia.

[Dreadnaught]

1 hour ago, Polly said:

The treated water carries away limescale deposits because the Aragonite molecules, though they do not bond to surfaces, do bond to their Calcite 'cousins' and carry them out in solution, over time.

 

 

This one quoted paragraph prompts me to post again. I have been mostly refraining as others seem eager to hear more from Polly in debate with other BH members. I admire @JSHarris and others for gamely entering the fray with civility and restraint.

 

Scientific words have precise meanings. For me, this paragraph is an example of riding a coach-and-horses across those meanings. It sounds science-y but for those versed in the subject*, it prompts open-mouthed astonishment at its ridiculousness.

 

It is perhaps worth reminding ourselves that Polly's employer, and by extension Polly herself, has a financial interest in this subject. Personally, I would prefer that such financial interests were kept from BuildHub. They are prone, in my opinion, to dilute and muffle debate and to dissimulate. After consideration, I believe that the mods took a decision to allow it in this case. My feeling from reading all the contributions to this thread is that this has been a popular decision.

 

To pick up on @richi's earlier thoughts about reaching a conclusion, I would find it interesting to see a poll of those who had read this thread from end-to-end exploring two questions: (1) whether this company's claims are proven; (2) on the wider question of allowing companies to be members of our forum. I wonder what others think.

 

(* as a young man, 20+ years ago, I gained a brace of degrees in related subjects)

Edited August 21, 2018 by Dreadnaught

[Jeremy Harris]

1.  Are the company's claims proven? 

 

Absolutely and unequivocally not. I can find no hard, independent, peer-reviewed evidence at all to support their claims.

 

2.  Should we allow companies to be members of our forum? 

 

Yes, as long as they don't openly promote their products or seek to gather data from forum members to assist in marketing their products.  Any company entering into a discussion on an open public forum knows before they start that open debate is a double edged sword, that can cause them reputational harm as well as reputational enhancement. 

 

An old acquaintance of mine, who was a kit aircraft supplier (I was once involved in kit aircraft design and manufacture) refused to join any aviation forum using his real name, or reveal any association with his company, solely because he felt that any customers who had experienced problems would raise them with him publicly, rather than privately, when seeking resolution.  He felt, rightly or wrongly, that contented customers would, in the main, keep quiet, and as a consequence only the occasional problem would get a public airing.  I'm inclined to think he was right, on balance.  People are often quick to seek out forums and social media in order to complain, but far less motivated to do so in order to just  say they had good, or acceptable, service, so the overall impression given can easily be very biased.

[HerbJ]

6 minutes ago, Dreadnaught said:

Scientific words have precise meanings. For me, this paragraph is an example of riding a coach-and-horses across those meanings. It sounds science-y but for those versed in the subject*, it prompts open-mouthed astonishment at its ridiculousness.

 

Unfortunately, much of their claim is based on this very statement. They are claiming the existing  limescale in systems will be  carried away by their treated water, leading to hot water energy savings of 30 to 40%.

 

Q.        How long will it take to remove the scale that’s already built up?

A.         Your Halcyan Water Conditioner will start working instantly. How long it takes to remove the existing scale depends on a number of things  (thickness, consistency, hardness, contact with treated water) but you’ll see a difference in a few weeks. And all the while you can be sure that no more scale will develop and the build-up you have is getting less every day.

 

This is used as the basis of a claim that the cost of this device will easily be recovered in less than years.

 

"Preventing and removing limescale is one of the most effective ways to reduce your energy bill. With 1mm of limescale increasing energy needs by 10% (British Water), most households can save 30-40% of their hot water energy costs almost immediately."

 

• "The average annual household spend on energy is £1,300 – and rising
• Your Halcyan Water Conditioner will save you, on average, 30% of this – and it could easily be more"

 

 

 

 

 

[Willster]

I appreciate this thread has pretty much died now, but I thought I'd revive it after spending some time looking into water softeners. To be honest, my initial impression was that Polly was being treated a little harshly and was somewhat "ganged up" against, but I'm no longer so sure...

 

I don't understand the chemistry in detail, but I thought there might be something in Halcyon's claims after reading testimonials. We must remember that the absence of proof doesn't mean something doesn't work - it can be very difficult to prove certain things (with a background in health, I appreciate that not everything is as simple as comparing two pills in a placebo controlled trial).

 

However, I've since come across two things :

1. Polly's LinkedIn profile which seems to suggest that her "scientific background" consists of an A Level in Chemistry (so not much)

2. This PDF which clearly states on page 12 that Halcyon softens water: http://constructingexcellence.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BRE-Sustainability-presentation.pdf

 

So whilst I didn't think it was worth splitting hairs when Polly stated that the company doesn't advertise (it was pointed out that having a website is indeed advertising, but I knew what she meant), this clearly isn't true. This PDF is indeed advertising and I know that Halcyon have attended various events over the last few months, not to mention their regular updates to their social media feeds. So let's be clear, they do advertise and their literature still claims that they soften water.

 

Unfortunately Polly no longer works for Halcyon, so I'm not sure if we can expect any further update from them. For example, it would be good to know the outcome of the trial she mentioned that was about to be conducted with a university.

 

Without that, am I right in saying that observers such as JSHarris are convinced that Halcyon's claims are complete nonsense? Or would you not go that far? Are they at best possible, but unlikely to last more than a few seconds/minutes? I'm trying to gauge if there's any value in researching this further. I'm certainly not going to spend several hundred pounds on a tube of metal that effectively does nothing!

[Jeremy Harris]

First off, welcome to the forum.

 

Interesting first post.  Are you in any way associated with this company?

 

 

[lizzie]

@Willster hello and welcome.  I have the Halcyon device fitted and I am entirely happy with it.

[Willster]

@JSHarris, thanks for your reply. No I'm not at all associated with Halcyon - not one bit and I'm surprised you asked since I thought my post was fairly critical of the company (or at least of Polly!). I'm trying to keep an open mind and not be too quick to dismiss Halcyon's claims, but as things stand, I'm not going to spend a lot of money on something I have serious reservations about. Interestingly, I've noticed that Halcyon are based very near where I live (which is possibly why you asked?), but I can assure you that's just a coincidence. I might go and speak to them soon, but of course they'll do their best to convince me, so I'd rather not do so just yet.

 

BTW, I've also looked at the Eddy device (http://www.eddy.uk.com/), but I'm sceptical of that too. Do you know if there are any non-salt based water "conditioners" that will reduce the effects of limescale? I'd rather not have the cost and hassle of replacing salt, which I gather can be a regular requirement. Also, we don't have much space (very little under the kitchen sink), so I'd rather not have one of those large water softeners I've seen online.

 

@lizzie, thanks for your post. That's the thing I find difficult in all of this - people with a much better understanding of chemistry than me are dismissing Halcyon's claims, but there are many positive testimonials. I really don't know what to believe. If you don't mind me asking, in what way are you so sure that the device has made a difference? To be honest, if it was more like £50 then I'd buy one tomorrow and take the risk, but I gather it's very expensive (though I don't know that for sure - I need to contact Halcyon to find out!).

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Willster

[Jeremy Harris]

@Willster, please accept my apology for seeming a bit suspicious!

 

I've looked at lots of ways to treat water to reduce limescale, and after a lot of looking around settled on using an ion exchange softener.  There are two of us and we are using two bricks of salt about every 6 weeks, at a cost (buying the salt bricks in bulk) of about £3 for a twin pack, so a running cost of around £0.50 per week.

 

Testimonials are always tricky, as they are driven by personal perception, rather than any formal analysis.  Our water has been analysed three times now, so I know beyond doubt what's in it.

[PeterW]

10 minutes ago, Willster said:

but I gather it's very expensive 

 

I was quoted about £450 from memory ....

[lizzie]

@Willster yes expensive I cant quite remember but circa £600 ex vat (reclaim allowed).

 

The water here is yuk. My water is better than my neighbours and we come off the same main.  It doesnt seem to remove the scale as such but it does appear to change it so it is not crusty and doesnt stick.  Any water marks on a surface  can be wiped off with a cloth. my window cleaner has used it and says it is good water.

 

Its hard to describe really but shampoo, soap etc work as they do in soft water areas not as they usually do do in hard areas like here.  I have stopped using my filter jug for tea and coffee water as the tap water makes good drinks.

 

I have not descaled washing machine as I used to have to do regularly and use much less salt in dishwasher.

 

Its kinder to skin too. Houseplants like it better too.

 

The water from my outside taps (that does not come through halcyon) is definately different.

 

I have no real understanding of how it works I am not at all scientific all I can tell you is that having used it for nearly a year I am happy with it.

[Willster]

@JSHarris Apology accepted! So I guess you have the kind of device that someone like TwinTec sells? (https://www.twintec.com). It's encouraging to know that the salt isn't as much as I thought and you only have to change it every 6 weeks. Still, the size of the devices put me off.

 

@PeterW I was about to say that's cheaper than I was expecting, but I've just seen Lizzie's reply. Either way, it's a lot of money if it doesn't work! ?

 

@lizzie thanks for your reply. It's interesting to know you've experienced exactly what Halcyon claim. I just wish it wasn't so expensive ?

[Jeremy Harris]

We have a Harvey, but the Twin Tec is a Harvey sold under licence.  They fit inside a kitchen cabinet, if need be, so aren't that large.  Our's sits in our service room, raised up slightly off the floor to save having to bend down too far. 

 

Like all ion exchange softeners, it removes pretty much all the calcium from the water, so there isn't any limescale at all, nor do we get any sign of white marks on taps, worktops etc.  We don't have to use salt in the washing machine, and we use a lot less washing powder, soap, shampoo etc.  The saving in shampoo alone probably comes close to paying for the salt (I'd like to know why shampoo is so damned expensive for what it is, too).

 

In terms of cost, I think our Harvey retails for about £900, that's for the non-electric, metered, twin-tank unit, which is, I think, the best all round solution.  The metered units tend to use less salt and water than the electric ones with a timer, but cost a bit more initially.  I suspect it doesn't take long to recover the cost from the reduction in salt and water usage, though.

[Willster]

That’s all very useful, thanks for your time @JSHarris. I’m now leaning more towards an ion exchange device, as I’d like no limescale at all, rather than just some kind of “soft” limescale (which might still clog up things like our coffee machine, despite Halcyon’s claims). I just need to find somewhere to put it!

[lizzie]

2 minutes ago, Willster said:

That’s all very useful, thanks for your time @JSHarris. I’m now leaning more towards an ion exchange device, as I’d like no limescale at all, rather than just some kind of “soft” limescale (which might still clog up things like our coffee machine, despite Halcyon’s claims). I just need to find somewhere to put it!

Welcome to try my coffee anytime....not descaled my machine in over 9 months LOL (and I drink espresso - strong and black and far too many in a day)

I think it's a minefield with water systems.  My halcyon was the source of much sniggering and derision on site and I'm sure they all thought I was barmy but I'm happy so hey ho. Good luck with whatever you decide on.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Willster said:

That’s all very useful, thanks for your time @JSHarris. I’m now leaning more towards an ion exchange device, as I’d like no limescale at all, rather than just some kind of “soft” limescale (which might still clog up things like our coffee machine, despite Halcyon’s claims). I just need to find somewhere to put it!

 

The situation regarding all the various "water treatment" units being sold is very like the way that various magic fuel catalyst type products were being sold back when unleaded petrol was introduced, or when 5 star was phased out.  There were lots of claims made that putting some type of catalyst, often tin-based beads, into a car fuel tank would magically give better mpg, stop detonation from lower octane fuel, decrease the risk of valve seat damage from using unleaded fuel etc.  One by one these units were all proven beyond doubt to have no benefit at all, but that didn't stop a lot of people from believing that they worked wonders. 

 

One interesting observation made back then was that the more "reassuringly expensive" a unit was, the more likely people were to strongly believe it worked, even though there was rock-solid evidence that it didn't.  Never underestimate the power of the placebo effect, it can be far stronger than any amount of hard evidence!

 

The main issue with the Halcyan claims in this thread is that they are either based on a flawed theory, or they are just meaningless.   Pretty much every point made about this product is pseudo-science, most of which has no meaning at all (which is why they can include this stuff in advertising, it's carefully worded gobbledegook).

 

On the other hand, the ion exchange principle is well-proven science.  We know exactly how it works and why it works and can calculate the exact ion exchange ratio and then prove that this is correct by analysis.  It's so well-proven that a simple home testing kit can show both whether or not an ion exchange unit is working, and measure the reduction in calcium in the water resulting from it.

 

[Mr Punter]

I have a Combimate, where you have to change some magic marbles in once a year. The kettle does not fur up but there is still residue where cold water evaporates such as in the tray of the fridge water dispenser, in spite of the fridge also having a water filter.

[Jeremy Harris]

5 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I have a Combimate, where you have to change some magic marbles in once a year. The kettle does not fur up but there is still residue where cold water evaporates such as in the tray of the fridge water dispenser, in spite of the fridge also having a water filter.

 

 

The Combimate is a very different product to the Halcyan, and uses phosphate dosing, which is another well-proven way to reduce the effects of hard water.  It doesn't remove the calcium from the water, but stops calcium carbonate from "sticking" to surfaces and causing scale.

[lizzie]

25 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The main issue with the Halcyan claims in this thread is that they are either based on a flawed theory, or they are just meaningless.   Pretty much every point made about this product is pseudo-science, most of which has no meaning at all (which is why they can include this stuff in advertising, it's carefully worded gobbledegook).

Jeremy I beg to differ.  I have a Halcyan unit in use for almost a year.  There is no doubt about the difference in the water that has gone through the Halcyan unit to that of my outside taps that come straight off the same main and I am very happy with the product. The effect is much the same as the Combimate one described  by @Mr Punter in as much as it seems to stops calcium from sticking rather than removing it. 

As you don't have a Halcyan then I see no real basis for the comments made above. It is clear you do not believe in their process but to damn without ever having tried the unit is as flawed as you claim their theory to be.  I would not wish to try and persuade anyone into anything at all everyone will make their own choices but at least in the discussion acknowledge evidence from people who actually have experience of the products under discussion.  

[Mr Punter]

@lizzie what is the difference? I found the kettle furred up before we fitted ours.

[lizzie]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

@lizzie what is the difference? I found the kettle furred up before we fitted ours.

I fitted mine before we moved in so have never had the kettle furring up here but the kettle in the garage used during construction furred up. Hard calc will gather on the outside water stuff not on the inside ones which have the benefit of the water going through the system (its on the incoming pipe in the plant room) .  I have very shiny chrome bathroom fittings and on on the large pieces I get some ‘soft’water marking its just like a puddle edge or a drop that has ‘set’ its not hard though and wipes off with a microfibre cloth and water no chemical cleaners needed. I dont get that on everything just on the large chrome fixtures every few days or so. The glass shower screen is a dream no white water marking (now if only I could find that leak!).  Kettle, coffee machine, washing machine, dishwasher...none have needed descaling here and I used to have to do once a month before.  Who knows how bad it would have been without this device but our neighbour on the same water main has to descale, he is very impressed with our water. I have had not one single piece of hard calc in this house which is impressive given the water we have coming down the main.

 

I am not at all scientific all I can say is it works for me, showers and baths are nicer too, shampoo etc much better.  I grew up with beautiful soft welsh water and can never hope to replicate that with the foul stuff we get here but this device has improved it no end without question and I am very pleased I fitted it even though every builder on the job laughed at me for it.LOL

[Jeremy Harris]

47 minutes ago, lizzie said:

Jeremy I beg to differ.  I have a Halcyan unit in use for almost a year.  There is no doubt about the difference in the water that has gone through the Halcyan unit to that of my outside taps that come straight off the same main and I am very happy with the product. The effect is much the same as the Combimate one described  by @Mr Punter in as much as it seems to stops calcium from sticking rather than removing it. 

As you don't have a Halcyan then I see no real basis for the comments made above. It is clear you do not believe in their process but to damn without ever having tried the unit is as flawed as you claim their theory to be.  I would not wish to try and persuade anyone into anything at all everyone will make their own choices but at least in the discussion acknowledge evidence from people who actually have experience of the products under discussion.  

 

 

FWIW, my first degree was in chemistry.  This website does a reasonable job of explaining the pseudo-science of these things: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

 

If you are happy with your £600 unit, then that's fine, but when tested, and by Halcyan's own admission when pushed, there is exactly the same amount of calcium in the water that comes out of one of these units as there is in the water flowing in to it.  No one has been able to provide evidence that the Halcyan unit softens water at all; every test shows that there is no measurable reduction in hardness.

 

Halcyan have made other spurious claims, earlier in this thread, which undermines their credibility further.  For example, they claimed that permanent magnets use power, which is obviously hogwash:

Quote

Permanent magnet "water conditioners" - These use power and do not, in our experience, have a successful anecdotal record

 

Halcyan mentioned a patent then refused to supply details, claiming it was commercially sensitive.  That's rubbish, too, as patents are in the public domain and can be viewed by anyone.  They were covering the fact that there was a patent issued in 2006, in Australia, that has expired: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?ST=singleline&locale=en_EP&submitted=true&DB=&query=halcyan  @jack made some knowledgable observations on the inaccuracy with which Halcyan were referring to "their" patent earlier in this thread.  A patent search (easy to do) doesn't show any patent registered to this company, which begs the question as to why they claim to have a patent on the "technology" when clearly they don't seem to.

 

The Halcyan website makes a false claim (all I've edited is their email address and phone number, to comply with forum Ts and Cs):

 

 

Note the wording at the bottom that says "Wake up to softer water!  Your hard water solution is here..really here!".  This is false.  The unit does not soften hard water at all.  I offered to test samples earlier in this thread to prove this, but the offer wasn't taken up.  It's dead easy to do a water hardness test, though, so I wonder why hardness test results aren't quoted?

 

Halcyan have also written this earlier in this thread when I offered to do blind testing on samples to see if the hardness was reduced, which states the opposite to their website:

 

Quote

We wholly support the venture if members here would like to pursue one themselves, but please remember that the whole point to the Halcyan system is that mineral content will be the same both before and after conditioning.

 

Just for clarification, all of the above refers to the Halcyan product, NOT the Combimate. 

 

The Combimate is a perfectly good product, that works on well-proven principles and which is advertised honestly and with no misleading pseudo-science.

 

 

 

 

 

[lizzie]

@Mr Punter I'm not great at explaining how it is but this is what my water residue looks like on my large bathroom fixtures - this was from this mornings use so dried all day  (its only seems to gather on large flat chrome areas) and the same fitting I have just given a quick wipe with a damp microfibre cloth.  There is no hard calc and no scrubbing required.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

@lizzie, you don't have the same unit as @Mr Punter.  He has a Combimate.