Thorfun Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 Can an RCBO span Loxone relays? and can a Loxone relay be powered by 2 x RCBOs? or is it best to configure 1 x RCBO for 1 x Loxone relay extension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted December 27, 2023 Share Posted December 27, 2023 39 minutes ago, Thorfun said: Can an RCBO span Loxone relays? and can a Loxone relay be powered by 2 x RCBOs? or is it best to configure 1 x RCBO for 1 x Loxone relay extension? Each relay (outputs on relay extension) are independant, so you use RCBO's however they need to be used for your loads, you don't need to take into account the extensions. As an example I have: - 5 towel-rails on a single RCBO using 5 outputs of one relay extension - 24 blind/curtain relays on a seperate RCBO, spanning multiple relay extensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 10 minutes ago, Dan F said: Each relay (outputs on relay extension) are independant, so you use RCBO's however they need to be used for your loads, you don't need to take into account the extensions. As an example I have: - 5 towel-rails on a single RCBO using 5 outputs of one relay extension - 24 blind/curtain relays on a seperate RCBO, spanning multiple relay extensions. thank you! I thought it would be ok but wanted to double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 27, 2023 Author Share Posted December 27, 2023 (edited) I'm so excited. I think I've finalised the layout (pending comments from the knowledgable folk on here of course as I'm always open to constructive feedback) of my panel. I know it looks backwards with the mains on the left and 24V on the right but that's the way my cables come down the wall from above and so is the logical layout for me, otherwise I will need to cross all the cables over which is just wrong! anyway, thank you to everyone for their assistance up to now. it's been invaluable. and sorry for all the questions. sometimes I feel that I'm a burden but, as always, this forum delivers. a couple of decisions I've made after I've thought about all the different opinions from discussions from here: 1. a single cable from the CU to multiple individual RCBOs in the cabinet (pending approval from my electrician of course). I know I'm going to have to work on the cabinet in the future to change things and move things around when I add the extensions for the basement lighting so I figure a single 'OFF' switch to isolate the cabinet is sensible for those occasions. 2. making use of SSR relays (thank you so much @joth for putting up with all my noddy-ness on this subject!) to switch my blinds utilising the Whitewing 24V 48 channel DMX dimmer. I just now need to decide whether to use the blocks like @joth does or to use the slim ones that look like normal terminal blocks. pricing is similar and so I will mull it over some more. 3. Audio server moved to the network/data rack as per @Dan F's awesome suggestion. 🙂 any further comments on the layout above is very welcome. Edited December 27, 2023 by Thorfun forgot about the audio server move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 15 hours ago, Thorfun said: yeah, I was thinking this. but can you tell me if I can configure the max output for the channel during Loxone setup before power is sent to the LED strip? i.e. I set the limit and then enable it and the power flows? You set it in the lighting controller in Config, so it can be programmed before you install the strip if you want! You can set a maximum power for other types of lighting too (i.e., not just LED strips). For example, we have some wall lights that look ridiculous when driven at 100% so I've programmed in a maximum of 60%. To be fair, most of the time people will be switching scenes rather than adjusting the power of additional channels, so there're limited reasons for spending too much time worrying about this for most channels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, jack said: You set it in the lighting controller in Config, so it can be programmed before you install the strip if you want! You can set a maximum power for other types of lighting too (i.e., not just LED strips). For example, we have some wall lights that look ridiculous when driven at 100% so I've programmed in a maximum of 60%. To be fair, most of the time people will be switching scenes rather than adjusting the power of additional channels, so there're limited reasons for spending too much time worrying about this for most channels. thank you. that's good to know. i look forward to being able to have a play with Loxone config. once i've got it all configured and have reduced the max power and lived with it all for a while i can then make use of the adjacent channels if i need them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Thorfun said: 1. a single cable from the CU to multiple individual RCBOs in the cabinet (pending approval from my electrician of course). I know I'm going to have to work on the cabinet in the future to change things and move things around when I add the extensions for the basement lighting so I figure a single 'OFF' switch to isolate the cabinet is sensible for those occasions. You need an MCB/isolator and busbar too. Our electirican used the contactum range inside Loxone panel with a double-pole isolator. Electician should be able to tell you what current rating and curve you need for RCBO's based on loads (also need to consider your cable sizes). Just looked and we have https://www.contactum.co.uk/product/cpd100 isolator. I didn't use any Whitewing kit or SSR's, stuck to Loxone Relays and DALI for lighting, so not comments on all of that. The one thing that I don't think is ideal (but may have already been discussed) is not having all "installation" (i.e. to the house) terminal blocks on the top rail. Even if the 24v blocks don't fit, can you put the blind terminal blocks on the top rail? It's just it'll be a bit of a pain routing (potentially non-flexible solid-core?) installation cabling within the panel to get to the top of the second rail. Edited December 28, 2023 by Dan F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Dan F said: The one thing that I don't think is ideal (but may have already been discussed) is not having all "installation" (i.e. to the house) terminal blocks on the top rail. Even if the 24v blocks don't fit, can you put the blind terminal blocks on the top rail? It's just it'll be a bit of a pain routing (potentially non-flexible solid-core?) installation cabling within the panel to get to the top of the second rail. @Dan F makes a good point here. Usually it is necessary to mount the top DIN rail closer to the back panel so that the 8x8 blue/grey cat6 terminal blocks don't foul the front cover which would leave much less space behind the top rail to get your cables down to the next DIN rail. Where I've used two rails for terminal blocks it's usually been a 6 rail cabinet which is much deeper than standard. This allows me to mount the top 2 DIN rails on shorter standoff brackets (30mm standard depth panel ones, as opposed to 70mm deep panel ones) but still leaves plenty of space behind the rail to get cables through. I have found it possible to feed cables behind a DIN rail, even if it's on 15mm spacers, but it's a bit awkward. You also have to consider how you're going to get the cables past or through the cable trunking after all your internal wiring is in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted December 28, 2023 Share Posted December 28, 2023 29 minutes ago, Rob99 said: @Dan F makes a good point here. Usually it is necessary to mount the top DIN rail closer to the back panel so that the 8x8 blue/grey cat6 terminal blocks don't foul the front cover which would leave much less space behind the top rail to get your cables down to the next DIN rail. Where I've used two rails for terminal blocks it's usually been a 6 rail cabinet which is much deeper than standard. This allows me to mount the top 2 DIN rails on shorter standoff brackets (30mm standard depth panel ones, as opposed to 70mm deep panel ones) but still leaves plenty of space behind the rail to get cables through. I have found it possible to feed cables behind a DIN rail, even if it's on 15mm spacers, but it's a bit awkward. You also have to consider how you're going to get the cables past or through the cable trunking after all your internal wiring is in place. I was thinking about routing primairly and had forgotton about depth. Assuming only the top rail is set-back (by removing feet), the "blind" terminal blocks on the second rail simply won't work depth-wise untless you set-back the second rail too, which isn't ideal. 2-way 24v terminal blocks might work on second rail if not very deep (albeit with a bit of routing hassle), but you'd need to check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 2 hours ago, Dan F said: You need an MCB/isolator and busbar too. Our electirican used the contactum range inside Loxone panel with a double-pole isolator. Electician should be able to tell you what current rating and curve you need for RCBO's based on loads (also need to consider your cable sizes). Just looked and we have https://www.contactum.co.uk/product/cpd100 isolator. thanks. an isolator sounds like a good idea. will double check with my electrician before I buy anything though! 2 hours ago, Dan F said: The one thing that I don't think is ideal (but may have already been discussed) is not having all "installation" (i.e. to the house) terminal blocks on the top rail. Even if the 24v blocks don't fit, can you put the blind terminal blocks on the top rail? It's just it'll be a bit of a pain routing (potentially non-flexible solid-core?) installation cabling within the panel to get to the top of the second rail. I have 76 x 230V terminal blocks and 11 x 8-way blocks. all of which add up to 28 DUs in the din rail. that leaves me 2 x DUs which will just about fit my 8 x blind terminal blocks. so the top rail is full before I even consider the basement terminal block requirements! so I moved the blind terminal blocks to the second din rail so I have room for expansion on the top rail for the basement. my blind cables are 4-core flex so I'm hoping it'll be ok to route them to the 2nd din rail. I'd be more concerned about routing the 24V cables as they're 1.5mm T&E so not very flexible at all. the only way to get more TBs fitted to din rail 1 would be if I can 'stack' them somehow but as @Rob99 says I don't have a deep cabinet so might not be possible. is there any other way of cramming more TBs in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 I realise that my panel layout doesn't show the correct number of 230V terminal blocks. I've expanded it to fill the correct number of DUs now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 28, 2023 Author Share Posted December 28, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Dan F said: I was thinking about routing primairly and had forgotton about depth. Assuming only the top rail is set-back (by removing feet), the "blind" terminal blocks on the second rail simply won't work depth-wise untless you set-back the second rail too, which isn't ideal. 2-way 24v terminal blocks might work on second rail if not very deep (albeit with a bit of routing hassle), but you'd need to check I have spare 2-way and 3-way terminal blocks so I could use multiple of those for each blind? if the 'blind' TBs won't fit Edited December 28, 2023 by Thorfun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted December 29, 2023 Author Share Posted December 29, 2023 I made a miscalculation on the number of terminal blocks and it looks like I can fit all the 230V TBs in the top din rail. should please @Dan F and @Rob99. 😉 also leaves a bit of room for basement expansion on terminal blocks and enough room for an 8 channel whitewing mains dimmer on the 2nd rail if required. I might not even need to get a cabinet extension. 🤞 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnyire Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 On 29/12/2023 at 19:24, Thorfun said: I made a miscalculation on the number of terminal blocks and it looks like I can fit all the 230V TBs in the top din rail. should please @Dan F and @Rob99. 😉 also leaves a bit of room for basement expansion on terminal blocks and enough room for an 8 channel whitewing mains dimmer on the 2nd rail if required. I might not even need to get a cabinet extension. 🤞 It is probably too late at this stage but Hugh (Ex Loxone) does panel designs and is brilliant. https://www.thamesvalleyautomation.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, Johnnyire said: It is probably too late at this stage but Hugh (Ex Loxone) does panel designs and is brilliant. https://www.thamesvalleyautomation.co.uk/ thanks. but I haven't any money hence doing it myself. plus I like the challenge and the journey of education and discovery it has led me on. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 I have started to put the cabinet together. the astute ones amongst you who have been paying attention will notice that I've reverted back to the 24V being on the left and 230V on the right. I can re-route the cables before entering the cabinet to make this work. it seems that the PSUB is designed for a cabinet to be this way as the mains input is on the right and the 24V outputs on the left. so I'd have to route the 24V cables across the mains input which I didn't like. I now see the issue with the blinds (and potentially the 8-way) terminal blocks. they stick way up! is this what you were talking about @Dan F and @Rob99 when you were talking about having to lower the top DIN rail? if so, how to I lower it? I presume I can't just affix it to the back of the cabinet (it's currently on some spacers which raises it off the back of the cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Thorfun said: I presume I can't just affix it to the back of the cabinet (it's currently on some spacers which raises it off the back of the cabinet You can. Four Allen bolts, remove the spacers, screw the rail back down directly to the chassis. Job done. Although, I'm unsure about those wago mains towers. They look too high even with the stands removed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 41 minutes ago, joth said: You can. Four Allen bolts, remove the spacers, screw the rail back down directly to the chassis. Job done. oh! awesome. will get that done tomorrow then. 41 minutes ago, joth said: Although, I'm unsure about those wago mains towers. They look too high even with the stands removed they have the label holder at the top which makes them even taller. I'll lower the rail and remove the label holders and then see where it's at. if I have to move to multiple triple decks instead on the 2nd din rail then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 43 minutes ago, joth said: Although, I'm unsure about those wago mains towers. They look too high even with the stands removed the Weidmuller ones are 88mm deep and the Wago ones are 96.8mm deep. so quite a difference when space is limited! wish I'd noticed that sooner tbh. luckily I only bought 8 of them so not too much of an expense to replace the Wago ones with the Weidmuller ones but I'll see how it goes tomorrow evening after I've lowered the rail. I'm now wondering about the triple deck height terminal blocks and how they compare depth wise with the Weidmuller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 2 minutes ago, Thorfun said: I'm now wondering about the triple deck height terminal blocks and how they compare depth wise with the Weidmuller. damn. the Weidmuller ones are only 65mm deep whereas the Wago ones are 81.3mm! I think I made the wrong choice going with Wago without having the 'Deep' FA cabinet. 😭 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 hours ago, Thorfun said: I have started to put the cabinet together Where did the cabinet come from, I have not found slim one like yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 11 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Where did the cabinet come from, I have not found slim one like yours? It’s a Future Automation LXN5 https://www.futureautomation.co.uk/Product/Details/LXN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan F Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, Thorfun said: damn. the Weidmuller ones are only 65mm deep whereas the Wago ones are 81.3mm! I think I made the wrong choice going with Wago without having the 'Deep' FA cabinet. 😭 The ones I used are only 50mm for L+N+PE blocks Wondering what you are using these 6-way ones for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, Thorfun said: I think I made the wrong choice going with Wago without having the 'Deep' FA cabinet. 😭 The triple height Wago 2002-3201 that I use will fit in a standard depth FA enclosure if you mount the DIN rail directly on the back with no spacers. The last LXN5 I built was fine with these Wago's and there should be clearance of about 10mm behind the front cover. Also, you can gain another 7.5mm of depth by swapping the standard 15mm deep DIN rail for a 7.5mm deep one if necessary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, Thorfun said: the Wago ones are 81.3mm My triple height Wago's are 70mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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