Builder told me something concerning - is there an insulation cartel?

[CalvinHobbes]

So met the builder today who told me we should have our quote on Friday. He went on to explain that when it comes to insulation, although the architect has specified certain brands like Kingspan that sometimes he may have to swap for another comparable brand due to supply issues. He then went on to point out that the insulation brands all tell the builders merchants they will have price increases say for example on Monday at 8am. He said they all did it simultaneously and it happened regularly. Is that not cartel behaviour? Is it allowed?

Edited October 25, 2022 by CalvinHobbes

[Conor]

These are the same people that faked fire safety data that led to the Grenfell tower disaster... So don't be surprised.

 

Quote happy that most of ourse was insulated with good ol' honest EPS from Kore down the road 🤣

[CalvinHobbes]

Ah Conor, he also told me your suggestion for the water connection was spot on - so you saved me min 400min . Thanks so much. 

Yes good point about Grenfell/Kingspan. Forgot about that. 

[Radian]

There almost certainly has to be some sort of cartel. As with most forms of insulation, the price reflects the long-term value of heating energy saved divided by the relative bulk of the material - as opposed to raw material, manufacturing and marketing costs. In situations like this, there's a lot of latitude for undercutting the competition to gain market advantage. But I've yet to see any sign of this happening. Other types of products bearing inflated prices are either monopolised, niche or promoted through the kind of bullshit marketing that suckers fall for.

[Andehh]

We found recticel slightly cheaper, but 10% better performing then Kingspan. 

[Iceverge]

2 hours ago, Andehh said:

We found recticel slightly cheaper, but 10% better performing then Kingspan. 

Interesting. Did you do actual scientific measurements? 

[Andehh]

Not really....just compared thermal transmittance of Kingspan at something like 0.024w v Recticels 0.022w, and the fact that one got U of 16 and one a U of 14 via SAP.

 

 

[ADLIan]

Make sure your are comparing like with like. Foil faced PUR tends to be 0.022 W/mK whilst products for flat roofing with bituminous or coated glass fleece facings will be 0.024 W/mK or greater

[themucky1]

On 25/10/2022 at 19:49, CalvinHobbes said:

Ah Conor, he also told me your suggestion for the water connection was spot on - so you saved me min 400min . Thanks so much. 

Yes good point about Grenfell/Kingspan. Forgot about that. 

The insulation wasn’t the reason for grenfell, there was no intumescent firebreaks between the cladding and the structure which then acted like a cavity so the fire went straight up between the two. The fire breaks should have been horizontal between every floor on the building and vertical between dwellings. 

[ADLIan]

That was part of the reason. The other was 2 particular pur insulation manufacturers competing for the same business and ‘engineering’ fire their test data to get their products into this market.

[TonyT]

Risers, not sealed also didn’t help

[Gus Potter]

I don't think there is a cartel in the true sense.. deliberate and determined criminal activity. Yes you may get the odd few idiots that are at it but at some point they will get caught and I suspect they may be made an example of. The Polsen scandal springs to mind where some jail time was served.

 

On 25/10/2022 at 19:44, Conor said:

These are the same people that faked fire safety data that led to the Grenfell tower disaster

Depends on what you consider faking.

 

In the past it was the BRE that did the fire tests (long ago they were a government body not an arms length organisation), laterally some of the big suppliers developed their own test facilities. Surprisingly we do quite well here in the UK and are I think are ahead of the game when compared to many other countries.. so take heart.

 

The lay person may think that faking means that in the lab you just manipulated the figures to get the right answer, went for a cup of tea and just made all the results up. From my experience I doubt this happens. I have met some real fire experts that are involved in testing and can assure that the ones I have met are consumate professionals that really take public safety very seriously.

 

However.. it can depend on the brief that you send to the lab!

 

Here is a good example that can invite discussion.

 

You have a block of luxury flats that are constructed with a cold formed steel structural frame. These flats tend to have one or two big principle rooms.

 

The flat party walls / public hall ways / main doors to the flats are all well fire protected. But.. some of the internal walls in the lower flats particularly need to be load bearing both vertically and horizontally for economic purposes. But the doors between the rooms in the flat are not fire doors as big thick heavy internal doors are not a selling point for a developer. A big thick front door is..folk feel that they won't get burgled and feel safe!

 

Now a good few fire details are tested for one sided fire exposure (a fire in one room) but if you don't separate the room the same way as you would flat to flat then you have two sided exposure and that is a different animal. If that wall happens to be load bearing wall that is holding up the flats above then you have a problem. Now if you ask the lab to test from one side you'll get one answer.. from two sides another.. the later will be less favourable if you are a developer seeking to make profit. So you go to the Building regs and try and interpret them to suit you, put pressure on BC and so on. You phone your big supplier and say.. BC are giving us hassle can you help?.. 

 

Help could come by way of a barrage of overwhelming technical info. When I was much younger I had heard stories about folk from BC getting a free holiday but these days are past. Now BC don't have the resources to argue the case, there is political pressure from above. This does not bode well for public safety. Unless we address this then I feel Grenfell won't be the last, may not be a fire..but lives will be lost.

 

Now I have owned a flat that had fire doors to every room. But as we know folk remove the self closers, jamb them open and so on. In terms of fire risk management you are now placing all you eggs in one basket to some extent in that the behavoir of one occupant can compromise the whole fire design of a building.

 

To put this another way. When we as SE's design a building we calculate the loads, factor them up an design for that. These are safety factors that cover everything from us making a calculation error / small loading misjudgement that will not be spotted ( SE's are human too).. say a dodgy batch of concrete that slips through the net, a bit of timber that has too many knots in it, a builder that is having a bad day and so on.

 

Looking at this in the round.. for something to go badly wrong you very often need a number of events to occur at one time.

 

The Grenfell tragety happend because our system of checks and balances has broken down. If only one person had made a stand and importantly been listened to then these lives could have been saved.

 

 

On 25/10/2022 at 19:10, CalvinHobbes said:

So met the builder today who told me we should have our quote on Friday.

 

We are seeing a lot of changes in the insulation market. Up in Scotland there is a big review going on in a lot of councils relating to fire performance of materials. Insulation is a big part of that. The insulation manufactures' are having to spend a fortune reviewing and in cases recertifying / reviewing their design guidance. Some big well known names have withdrawn products, some have so many caveats that it puts designers off going any where near their products as the designer carries a big liability. Everyone is trying to shed risk.

 

All of the above is limiting the choice of materials and thus I can see why you may think there is a Cartel.

 

Hopefully in a few months time I will be able to comment in a more upbeat way. I know I sound like a gloom and doom merchant!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ADLIan]

A cartel or price fixing involves competitors actively discussing pricing and is highly illegal. It is very unlikely as most companies now have strict anti competitive practice policies under the threat of fines equal to 10% of the companies world wide turnover and fines/imprisonment for local directors if found guilty. Price rises are normally started by the market leader, they must give their merchants/distributors notice, normally 3 months, of a planned price rise. Once the proposed price rise is known in the market then other manufacturers will simply follow suit. Remember in many sectors there are only a handful manufacturers (plasterboard has 3?).