Next Gen Samsung ASHP; 5.11 COP, 70deg HW, Small form factor....

[markocosic]

We can't tell Jack from their published dataset. Naff all detail on full or part load performance is published. I don't think you do this if you have something to brag about. I think you do this if ambiguity suits you. So waiting on some actual numbers for the RED units before giving a verdict. @dpmiller

[JamesPa]

I think its RED that have been purchased by Octopus energy, my guess, if I'm right, is that their capabilities may be in course of repurposing given the Octopus push into deploying heat pumps.

[joth]

  On 27/09/2022 at 16:22, HughF said:

This obsession with old rads needs to end, now.... Who the heck wants their old rads? Mostly they're scratched up, badly painted, undersized and full of sludge.

 

 

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The issue is the retrofit market, and dealing with people that have kept their old boiler on life support for years (via a poor value BG service plan most often) and then it terminally dies in the middle of winter and they make a snap decision to install a heatpump tomorrow, but with minimal disruption please as we just redecorated. At best the conversation about new rads gets someway before being abandoned due to them being obsolete given the aspirations to install UFH in the remodeling project that's always a couple years away...

 

While there's absolutely nothing right about this decision process the truth is it's going to play out hundreds of thousands of times over the next decade. So manufacturers are bound to try and position their ashp as the perfect drop in for an ancient system boiler. 

For new builds or well designed deep renovations it's a completely different ball game. But while these high quality projects are the norm on this forum, they're the exception nationally, which is where the heatpump manufacturers will be increasingly spending their marketing 

Edited September 30, 2022 by joth

[HughF]

  On 30/09/2022 at 08:44, joth said:

The issue is the retrofit market, and dealing with people that have kept their old boiler on life support for years (via a poor value BG service plan most often) and then it terminally dies in the middle of winter and they make a snap decision to install a heatpump tomorrow, but with minimal disruption please as we just redecorated. At best the conversation about new rads gets someway before being abandoned due to them being obsolete given the aspirations to install UFH in the remodeling project that's always a couple years away...

 

While there's absolutely nothing right about this decision process the truth is it's going to play out hundreds of thousands of times over the next decade. So manufacturers are bound to try and position their ashp as the perfect drop in for an ancient system boiler. 

For new builds or well designed deep renovations it's a completely different ball game. But while these high quality projects are the norm on this forum, they're the exception nationally, which is where the heatpump manufacturers will be increasingly spending their marketing 

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You mean like the Baxi Bermuda in my wife's house that she has been paying a BG service plan for, since forever*  Luckily, I think we'll get this winter out of it before retiring it next spring when we put the extension on the back and replace all the rads.

 

*The same BG service plan who failed to spot a faulty 3 port mid position valve, a faulty cylinder stat, and a faulty room stat... You'll be please to know I made her cancel the service plan this year.

[joth]

  On 30/09/2022 at 12:00, HughF said:

Baxi Bermuda

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Sounds like a body hair removal treatment for men of a certain age about to go on their beach holiday 😂

 

[HughF]

  On 30/09/2022 at 12:10, joth said:

Sounds like a body hair removal treatment for men of a certain age about to go on their beach holiday 😂

 

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It does somewhat doesn't it... It's one of those old back boilers with a gas-u-fire on the front...

[GaryW]

Very tempted by this unit - at £4.5K is is not a high price for a brand new unit.

R32 is not cutting edge, but my house does not need cutting edge - it just needs to work.

 

I cannot seem to find it on this unit - is a primary pump required?

normally on a HP install I only seen secondary's?

 

Context: -

New Build

detached, upstairs downstairs, UFH all round, 250m2 - 238m2 usable.

Heat Loss calculated at 7.1kW

 

 

[PhilT]

  On 09/11/2022 at 11:48, GaryW said:

Very tempted by this unit - at £4.5K is is not a high price for a brand new unit.

R32 is not cutting edge, but my house does not need cutting edge - it just needs to work.

 

I cannot seem to find it on this unit - is a primary pump required?

normally on a HP install I only seen secondary's?

 

Context: -

New Build

detached, upstairs downstairs, UFH all round, 250m2 - 238m2 usable.

Heat Loss calculated at 7.1kW

 

 

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R32 is cutting edge for practical commercial application, which is why most of the major manufacturers have now adopted it in their latest models, a notable exception being Vaillant using R290 which is slightly less efficient but enables higher flow temperature but needs a siting position that meets fire regs. My monobloc ASHP has no central heating pump. I have both primary and secondary pumps, the latter to boost radiator circuit flow rate. Looks like you may need at least that for your very large UFH floor area.

[GaryW]

  On 09/11/2022 at 14:04, PhilT said:

R32 is cutting edge for practical commercial application, which is why most of the major manufacturers have now adopted it in their latest models, a notable exception being Vaillant using R290 which is slightly less efficient but enables higher flow temperature but needs a siting position that meets fire regs. My monobloc ASHP has no central heating pump. I have both primary and secondary pumps, the latter to boost radiator circuit flow rate. Looks like you may need at least that for your very large UFH floor area.

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When it comes to many factors - Propane (R290?) is the future - RED are making that move today - as well as others, no doubt - even for the regulation alone - on the compressor side, it is more efficient.

 

On the secondary pumps - some people show a pump per manifold block - others don't.

I have 2 manifolds - upstairs & downstairs - would 1 primary - 2 secondary pumps - would they not basically annoy each other?

Also means I need a buffer - which doesn't seem to be in favour, in modern thinking...

 

My plumber basically says he is unsure...

Reassuring.

[SteamyTea]

  On 09/11/2022 at 15:53, GaryW said:

Propane (R290?) is the future

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Not if the unit containing the propane is indoors. I think there may be a 150g limit.

 

A new record of 9.7g/kW was recently achieved, but current units use around 60g/kW.

 

https://www.coolingpost.com/world-news/propane-heat-pump-hits-new-efficiency-record/

[JohnMo]

  On 09/11/2022 at 15:53, GaryW said:

have 2 manifolds - upstairs & downstairs - would 1 primary - 2 secondary pumps - would they not basically annoy each other?

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If the two manifold pumps have a mixer upstream, then there is hydraulic sepereration, so the pumps then have no interaction with each other.  The manifold pumps pull the water through the mixer.  The main system pump delivers flow to the mixers.

Edited November 9, 2022 by JohnMo
Missed the word no

[PhilT]

  On 09/11/2022 at 15:53, GaryW said:

 

When it comes to many factors - Propane (R290?) is the future - RED are making that move today - as well as others, no doubt - even for the regulation alone - on the compressor side, it is more efficient.

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https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/iracc/1577/#:~:text=From the results%2C R32 has,can keep compressors stoke volume.

[GaryW]

  On 09/11/2022 at 16:39, JohnMo said:

If the two manifold pumps have a mixer upstream, then there is hydraulic sepereration, so the pumps then have no interaction with each other.  The manifold pumps pull the water through the mixer.  The main system pump delivers flow to the mixers.

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Thanks for the reply John.

 

Gonna draw a schematic here, for it to be laughed at...

 

It's a simple system yet seem difficult for a experienced plumber to commit to.

[markocosic]

The Samsung unit is plenty decent. R32 is the past not the future for small self contained systems in Europe. The vast majority of Samsung's split air conditioner infrastructure will be R32 though which is why they have used it.

 

The unit doesn't come with a pump inside. Only the plate heat exchanger. (and a heating pad on it to prevent freezing even without glycol as long as your electricity hasn't also tripped) Add your own pump indoors to suit your own system.

 

Even if you only need 8 kW you probably want the 12 kW unit as it'll be more efficient when operated at part load.

 

You can see Samsung using this trick themselves in the datasheet. (the capacity table for 8kW has a dent in it at the 7degC test temperature to force the unit into part load and bump the nameplate sCOP - cheeky buggers)

 

12 and 14 units appear identical except for software limits on output.

[GaryW]

  On 09/11/2022 at 19:20, markocosic said:

The Samsung unit is plenty decent. R32 is the past not the future for small self contained systems in Europe. The vast majority of Samsung's split air conditioner infrastructure will be R32 though which is why they have used it.

 

The unit doesn't come with a pump inside. Only the plate heat exchanger. (and a heating pad on it to prevent freezing even without glycol as long as your electricity hasn't also tripped) Add your own pump indoors to suit your own system.

 

Even if you only need 8 kW you probably want the 12 kW unit as it'll be more efficient when operated at part load.

 

You can see Samsung using this trick themselves in the datasheet. (the capacity table for 8kW has a dent in it at the 7degC test temperature to force the unit into part load and bump the nameplate sCOP - cheeky buggers)

 

12 and 14 units appear identical except for software limits on output.

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Excellent Info.

 

Still tempted to buy the 8kW.

 I've a 6kW stove in the living room that can be lit on Baltic nights.

 

Aware modulation ain't published yet, but it published a flow temp of 15-70 - is that not 5 Deg less than average, points to good modulation?

[PhilT]

  On 09/11/2022 at 20:25, GaryW said:

Excellent Info.

 

Still tempted to buy the 8kW.

 I've a 6kW stove in the living room that can be lit on Baltic nights.

 

Aware modulation ain't published yet, but it published a flow temp of 15-70 - is that not 5 Deg less than average, points to good modulation?

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In the UK I don't really see the point in having a max flow temp above 60 it defeats the idea of having a heat pump in the first place. My RHI is invalidated if I go above 50 for heating and the DHW works very well at 55. Vaillant and Samsung make a big thing of the high temperature feature, aimed at those who think they need higher temps because they either don't want, or cannot afford, larger rads or UFH, which is self defeating because operating at flow temps that high utterly screws up the efficiency and operating costs. Although I grant you the situation may be different in -20degC parts of the globe

Edited November 10, 2022 by PhilT

[GaryW]

  On 10/11/2022 at 11:01, PhilT said:

In the UK I don't really see the point in having a max flow temp above 60 it defeats the idea of having a heat pump in the first place. My RHI is invalidated if I go above 50 for heating and the DHW works very well at 55. Vaillant and Samsung make a big thing of the high temperature feature, aimed at those who think they need higher temps because they either don't want, or cannot afford, larger rads or UFH, which is self defeating because operating at flow temps that high utterly screws up the efficiency and operating costs. Although I grant you the situation may be different in -20degC parts of the globe

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I agree, there is none in reality.

 

unless of course you just wanted to bolt this onto a property without worrying about the emitters or insulation. then it will...

Running costs isn't important at the point of sale went you liquidate your company in a few years.

 

On my part, it is the new unit - will supersede the pervious gen and moving forward, will be supported for longer, you would think.

 

Any idea what "load compensation" is called on a Samsung heat pump?

I've found "water law" for weather - any for direct load modulation?

[markocosic]

Just like the old is units...it doesn't have any load compensation.

 

The controls are basic if we're being polite or not fit for purpose if we're not.

 

It'll be ok if your house is well insulated and underfloor heated and can manage temperature on weather compensation alone.

 

Else it doesn't work.

 

The best advice they can give is to overcook the weather comp (set hotter than it needs to be) and install a thermostat to kick it on and off - poor man's load compensation if you will.

 

As a consequence I doubt you'll see the stated performance in practice; save for pure weather compensation on underfloor systems.

 

Nibe, Vaillant, et al if you're after great pumps with controls that understand wet heating systems. The asian brands only seem to do air to air well.

[markocosic]

@PhilTin -20C parts of the globe they also use 55C.

 

These units can do this (55 at -20) which is partly why the high temperature feature exists. (a side effect of making normal temperatures work when it's cold out)

 

You'd be mad to do it though courtesy of something called marginal cop.

 

(at some point each extra kw of heat costs you more than 1ke of electricity, so at that point you stop increasing flow temperature and kick in an auxiliary heat source that is direct electric or better)