RIGHT OF WAY

[Alchemist]

This is a continuation of a neighbour dispute some people on here give me advice on. This is a new problem. The neighbours have a right of way through our property. We do not dispute that; nor have we in the past, sought to impede it. However, the ROW is extemely invasive. It is in the shape of a `7` and is 8ft at its widest and only 5ft wide at its narrowest. It passess within 2 ft of three windows and a door. When we bought the house 28 years ago, the solicitor who was living here had the easelemt removed from the title deeds. My wife would never have bought the house if she had known about the ROW because it is so invasive. However, when the issue came to light, the LR reinstated the ROW with the correct wording.

 

Since then the ROW has not been a nusiance, Last year the new neighbours wanted to construct a large conservatory and they wanted to bring the construction crew and materiel through the ROW meaning that we could not use our own patio for a period of 12 weeks. We objected to this (A week OK but 12!?) (The ROW is poorly worded it simply states to pass and repass...nothing else at all.)

 

They have already put two tradesmen we have had here to quote for work to flight and the other day they came through when we were having a drink on the patio and had a go at me and my wife. (we are both mid -70 and I am very ill) WE had to call the police. They are now using the patio to such an extent that it is impossible for us to enjoy our own home. Yesterday, one of them came through and insisted that I remove myself from the ROW so that she could come through with a relative small package. To be honest, we would sell up and move but there is no way anybody would by the house now - and I can`t blame them. Is there any avenue I can explore to relieve some of this pressure? Please don`t say `have a nice chat` they have already upset everone neraby and apparently have a reputation for this type of thing from previous locations. When does the legitimate use of a right of way morph into a nusiance?

 

I would really appreciate any help, please.   Thanks

[LnP]

This sounds awful. You have my sympathies. We had a similarly unpleasant neighbour who disputed the position of a boundary. He wanted to build an extension on land which we believed was ours. We sought help from solicitors. Initially we engaged one directly to write letters but this didn’t stop him and we could see it was going to be an expensive process. We had legal expenses cover with our house insurance so we made a claim and they agreed to support us.

It took 6 yrs and a civil court hearing to resolve. Legal costs on our side were about £100k but we won the case with expenses awarded in our flavour.

I found the behaviour of our neighbour traumatising but this was significantly ameliorated by have a lawyer beside me. So my advice is to get legal help, and if you can, get your insurance company to pay for it.

Edited September 15, 2022 by LnP

[elite]

Are they using the ROW in accordance with the deeds?

 

I don't believe there is any limit to the number times they may excercise pass and repass, though obviously that does not allow them to abuse you and your family, or require you to not to use your property as long as you are not obstructing the ROW

 

Have you seen the gardenlaw forum? There is a lot of useful info on there

[TonyT]

What does ROW mean in this context, sorry not heard of that before?

[kommando]

ROW is right of way in this case.

[TonyT]

Sorry, didn’t see the subject title😩

[Alchemist]

AHHh I think this might be just a fantasy but I have been told that the overiding restriction on a ROW (above all others) is that it cannot stop a person who is subjected to the terms of the right of way from enjoying their own property. If that is the case, the terms of the right of way (it being so invasive and thus allowing the neighbours to be a continual nuisiance) seem to be in conflict with thsi principle......The right to enjoy your own property is enshrined in the Human Rights Act too..... But this sounds like fantasy and very expensive.

 

Any way thanks for your input

[Mr Punter]

I know someone who has a similar Right of Way over her property but it not abused by the neighbours who benefit from it.

 

I am afraid there may be little you can do.  If the Right was not made clear to you when you bought the property you MAY have a claim against your conveyancer or the seller, but after 28 years I very much doubt it.

 

 

[Temp]

All I can think is asking them how much they would want to give up the ROW permanently?  If they are willing then best do this formally so it gets removed from the deeds once and for all. A surveyor might be able to estimate what the right value is eg what it increases your house by and how much it reduces theirs by.

 

 

[Temp]

21 hours ago, Alchemist said:

When we bought the house 28 years ago, the solicitor who was living here had the easelemt removed from the title deeds.

 

Might be worth investigating how he did that. Didn't he have to provide any evidence the neighbour agreed? 

 

 

[Chanmenie]

If the solicitor had the ROW removed, was it extinguished, in which case it cannot be reinstated. Did the solicitor also own the neighbouring property by any chance ? 

I have done research on this as there was previously an ROW onto my plot, fortunately it has been extinguished. 

[Alchemist]

IT was an odd situation. The solicitor living in our house stated (when he registered the property) that the easment said "in favour of No.1 over No.1" when clearly it should have said "No2 in favour of No 1". The Land Registry stated that the latter was what it was meant to say (give us £1000) so the deeds were amended to say that. I do not think that I can get the ROw extinguished. I might be able to get restrictions oi its use because it is so intrusive I just don`t now.

I mean 5ft wide! andnext to my door!!

[Chanmenie]

6 hours ago, Alchemist said:

IT was an odd situation. The solicitor living in our house stated (when he registered the property) that the easment said "in favour of No.1 over No.1" when clearly it should have said "No2 in favour of No 1". The Land Registry stated that the latter was what it was meant to say (give us £1000) so the deeds were amended to say that. I do not think that I can get the ROw extinguished. I might be able to get restrictions oi its use because it is so intrusive I just don`t now.

I mean 5ft wide! andnext to my door!!

So had you known would you have bought the property ? 
unfortunately it should have been sorted out properly at the time 

[AliG]

I went back and read the thread re next door's conservatory.

 

Have you gone to the Land Registry and got the deeds for next door to see the words of the easement in their deeds? I think this would be very worth the modest cost.

 

On the face of it you are in a horrible situation, it seems like your back patio is the access to their back door so they can and will come through whenever they like.

 

The only possible recourse you have is if they "harass" you as they come through. They can come through but this does not give them a right to linger, talk to you etc. Nor do you have to move assuming that they can get past.

 

However, unless you can prove harassment, then sadly you are stuck. They can come and go as they please. Really I would just avoid using the patio, annoying as that may be.

[Ferdinand]

On 17/09/2022 at 09:42, Chanmenie said:

If the solicitor had the ROW removed, was it extinguished, in which case it cannot be reinstated. Did the solicitor also own the neighbouring property by any chance ? 

I have done research on this as there was previously an ROW onto my plot, fortunately it has been extinguished. 

 

Time matters there.

 

If they have been using it for N years, they may have established a new one 🤔.

[Ferdinand]

12 minutes ago, AliG said:

I went back and read the thread re next door's conservatory.

 

Have you gone to the Land Registry and got the deeds for next door to see the words of the easement in their deeds? I think this would be very worth the modest cost.

 

On the face of it you are in a horrible situation, it seems like your back patio is the access to their back door so they can and will come through whenever they like.

 

The only possible recourse you have is if they "harass" you as they come through. They can come through but this does not give them a right to linger, talk to you etc. Nor do you have to move assuming that they can get past.

 

However, unless you can prove harassment, then sadly you are stuck. They can come and go as they please. Really I would just avoid using the patio, annoying as that may be.

 

Harrassment (or nuisance) would not help extinguish a right or way, as I see it.

 

It might make them pipe down a bit.

 

I would suggest asking the same Q on Gardenlaw.

[AliG]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Harrassment (or nuisance) would not help extinguish a right or way, as I see it.

 

It doesn't, but If you could prove harassment you could get a restraining order, however that is going to require a lot of proof.

 

Hence I reckon the easy option is just to avoid them, annoying as that may be.

[Ferdinand]

20 minutes ago, AliG said:

It doesn't, but If you could prove harassment you could get a restraining order, however that is going to require a lot of proof.

 

Hence I reckon the easy option is just to avoid them, annoying as that may be.

 

The only realistic options I can see are:

 

1 - Tolerate and ignore as you say.

2 - Get the LR to revisit their 'pass and repass unlimited' definition, since that is clearly more widely defined than 'carry a bag of coal'. That needs research.

3 - Stuff their mouth with loadsamoney and get it extinguished. 

4 - Close off the 5ft-7ft wide section of the patio lengthways with a fence, and learn to live in a smaller garden.

 

F

 

F

[Temp]

I guess they have no other access route so offering to buy out the easement isn't an option.

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, Temp said:

I guess they have no other access route so offering to buy out the easement isn't an option.

 

The previous thread, as I read it, suggest that they do, assuming that the "ROW" runs through the patio. SO there is the ROW past the table where the photog is standing, and the "right turn" across the end of the patio from the door along what I think is a path between the door and the iron gate.

 

(OP has never supplied a map, so we are all guessing to some extent.)

 

If the ROW actually just goes across the end then a simple short piece of fence may do it, or a solid gate could help.

 

Quote

The gardens are very peculiar. What you see here is our patio. The other side of the fence is the garden of the next door neighbour. Their garden is the same length as our patio. The block of 4 cottages were back (1910?) one farm house that was chopped up into the four cottages. The neighbours come out of the door you see and then take a right angle to go out onto the street. The row was originally reserved for the owner of No2 to bring coal in from the road. Yes  the deeds do show this patio as ours. (Just looked at the deeds the next door`s garden is the same length but about three tines wider. I HOPE THIS HELPS

Link

 

 

But it is now up to OP.

[AliG]

6 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

The previous thread, as I read it, suggest that they do, assuming that the "ROW" runs through the patio. SO there is the ROW past the table where the photog is standing, and the "right turn" across the end of the patio from the door along what I think is a path between the door and the iron gate.

I thought that for a second, but looking at other pics I believe the right of way is past the back of OP’s house then turn right where the photographer is standing.
 

OP is the end of terrace house and attached to the neighbour with the conservatory at the point next to the gate.

 

Thus access to the back of neighbour’s house can only be via OP’s patio

 

A right of way like this is always going to be problematic.

[Alchemist]

I`d like to thank you all for your help. But they waited until we had a drink on the patio this evening then came through and proceded to wind us up " move your feet we can`t get past `etc Then we discovered that the cheeky sods were recording us on our own property. My wife is in a hell of a state. I think I may have to shell out some money. Then perhaps rent out the house. It is impossible to live like this. Sorry I`m still upset but thanks again. 

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, Alchemist said:

I`d like to thank you all for your help. But they waited until we had a drink on the patio this evening then came through and proceded to wind us up " move your feet we can`t get past `etc Then we discovered that the cheeky sods were recording us on our own property. My wife is in a hell of a state. I think I may have to shell out some money. Then perhaps rent out the house. It is impossible to live like this. Sorry I`m still upset but thanks again. 

 

The *could* be a tunnel through.

 

Sorry to hear that - an you clarify for me and @AliG where the RoW runs, as per the two previous posts, and what alternative access the neighbour (to see if extinguishing the RoW is possible)?

 

I have no idea what caselaw is about filming a ROW through your neighbour's back yard, but that is what the nuisance and community safety teams at your Council are for. They *should* send an official letter and investigate if that is what you want - can have a bit of a chilling affect on neighbour behaviour.

 

(BTW if you ask, we can consider hiding this whole thread, or parts of it, to make it non-public).

 

F

[AliG]

I think they are probably annoyed about you trying to stop them building their conservatory and trying to wind you up.

 

They do have a right of way but they absolutely do not have the right to talk to you as they come through.

 

You could get a lawyer involved and argue that this is harassment but the likelihood is that winds them up more. You would have to film the patio yourselves to prove harassment, which is difficult to prove.

 

Edit: Having thought about it. How often do they come through when you aren’t in the garden? If you filmed it and showed that they only use it when you are there I think that might be decent evidence that they are using it to harass you and not for actual access. However, if they use it all the time then this won’t help.

 

I just wouldn’t go out there as it gives them the chance to wind you up.  I know that maybe sounds like victim blaming but if you just forgot about it then your life would be a bit easier. I suspect that if you stopped going outside they would also use it less and maybe forget about it too. It’s almost October 1st. I doubt you’d really want to sit outside for the next 5 or 6 months anyway.

[AliG]

I really have to emphasise this.

 

It only costs a few pounds to get a copy of their deeds.

 

The right of way in their deeds may be more restrictive and help you out. For example it may say they have a right of way for maintenance or coal deliveries. Or it may not.

 

You NEED to do this. It might not help at all but it is by far the simplest solution if it does help and a lawyer is going to want to check this anyway.