Method statement services trench

[Maria]

Hello everyone, 

 

I apologise to those who keep seeing posts from me about this wretched trench... I considered adding replies to one of my previous posts but thought they weren't quite covering the question of method statement. 

 

Anyway, the trench for services is to be excavated in a shared drive with neighbours' garages sitting on both edges of the drive. The drive is roughly 3 meters wide, so the works are a subject to a party wall agreement. 

 

There are already existing services in the drive - water, gas, electrics,  BT.

 

One of the neighbours is a surveyor,  so he insists on covering all eventualities before he OKs the works.

 

We've had a chat yesterday and agreed on a min distance from both properties that they'd be happy with.

 

But he also wants a method statement detailing machinery, depths,  widths,  compaction methods, materials used and duration of works. 

 

Does anyone have any examples of method statements for these types of works?

 

I attach a drawing of the drive with position of utilities. The contractor will do the trial pits as well.

 

 

Many thanks 

Utility Detection Survey.pdf

[nod]

Your contractor should do all this

It will be Something he will do on a regular basis 

Methods statements are really generic 

 

[Maria]

9 hours ago, nod said:

Your contractor should do all this

It will be Something he will do on a regular basis 

Methods statements are really generic 

 

That's exactly the type of answer that I didn't want to hear.

 

If I am asking for some examples, then that's what I am after. 

[PeterW]

18 hours ago, Maria said:

But he also wants a method statement detailing machinery, depths,  widths,  compaction methods, materials used and duration of works. 

Does he own the drive ..? If not, he can take a hike as it’s nothing to do with him.
 

MS (or RAMS to give it the correct title) is only required for HSE purposes, or where you are operating on a property where 3rd parties have significant safety requirements. For example we have to use them in a nursing home environment as it details how access for emergency services will be maintained.

 

I would basically be having a chat saying “we want to get on and build what we have permission for, and this is slowing down progress and protracting the period he will be disturbed for, so please let us get on”

 

Also…  make sure your contractor get the signs and barriers correct when they close the road, and insist it is a full PPE site - that means you too. Boots, helmets, hi viz, no exceptions. That will stop him entering site as I can see him trying to interfere here when they do start and you need to make it very clear what the boundaries are from the outset. 

[joe90]

Are you doing the work or your contractor?, @PeterW has given a full reply above.

[ToughButterCup]

The minute you ( @Maria ) start doing the contractor's work, you lose the protection that DOMESTIC CLIENTS are afforded by CDM 2015.

 

My ( I have a feeling -our- ) collective inexpert advice is to get your contractor to make the operational arrangements. 

Here is our extended discussion on CDM 2015  Please read it.

Edited July 16, 2022 by ToughButterCup

[Maria]

13 hours ago, PeterW said:

Does he own the drive ..? If not, he can take a hike as it’s nothing to do with him.
 

MS (or RAMS to give it the correct title) is only required for HSE purposes, or where you are operating on a property where 3rd parties have significant safety requirements. For example we have to use them in a nursing home environment as it details how access for emergency services will be maintained.

 

I would basically be having a chat saying “we want to get on and build what we have permission for, and this is slowing down progress and protracting the period he will be disturbed for, so please let us get on”

 

Also…  make sure your contractor get the signs and barriers correct when they close the road, and insist it is a full PPE site - that means you too. Boots, helmets, hi viz, no exceptions. That will stop him entering site as I can see him trying to interfere here when they do start and you need to make it very clear what the boundaries are from the outset. 

We plan to excavate within 3 meters from his property. Does he still not have rights to ask for documents? 

 

 I did serve him notice a few months ago, but he came back saying he needs more information.  I already lost one contractor because they're not prepared to deal with this. Took me another few months to get another contractor on board.

 

We cannot block off the access completely, and he only needs to get out to his front garden to see it.

 

 Would involving a lawyer be a bad idea at this point? I am dreading that whatever limited budget I had for this will be blown on legal and surveyors fees.

[Maria]

8 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

The minute you ( @Maria ) start doing the contractor's work, you lose the protection that DOMESTIC CLIENTS are afforded by CDM 2015.

 

My ( I have a feeling -our- ) collective inexpert advice is to get your contractor to make the operational arrangements. 

Here is our extended discussion on CDM 2015  Please read it.

I never mentioned anywhere that I was going to do it. I wanted  examples of MS, so I know what to expect, and  ask for more details if necessary.  

[Temp]

Google found an example you can look at for foundation trench but a lot of editing needed and your contractor would need to agree it all. If you can't get the neighbour off your back without one best ask the contractor if they have one.

 

https://nationaltradesmen.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/example_method_statement_for_excavation_work.pdf

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

19 hours ago, Maria said:

I never mentioned anywhere that I was going to do it. I wanted  examples of MS, so I know what to expect, and  ask for more details if necessary.  

 

On 15/07/2022 at 13:18, Maria said:

...

But he also wants a method statement detailing machinery, depths,  widths,  compaction methods, materials used and duration of works. 

 

Does anyone have any examples of method statements for these types of works?

Utility Detection Survey.pdf 620.88 kB · 10 downloads

 

[Maria]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

 

You are making assumptions whilst all there is to it, I've asked for examples as I thought people here would know. 

 

There are hundreds of questions here on technicalities, legalities etc, and if each time a question is answered "let your builder/contractor/lawyer deal with it", then what's the point of this forum?

[LA3222]

This is starting to remind me of a 'zoot' thread🥷

Edited July 17, 2022 by LA3222

[Russdl]

1 hour ago, Maria said:

then what's the point of this forum?

You are clearly in the wrong place. 

[PeterW]

23 hours ago, Maria said:

We plan to excavate within 3 meters from his property. Does he still not have rights to ask for documents? 

Nope - not RAMS. He can only use the PWA to ensure his foundations are secure but he has to appoint a PWA surveyor or request it when you do the PW Agreement. 
 

23 hours ago, Maria said:

We cannot block off the access completely, and he only needs to get out to his front garden to see it.

Who owns the access ..? You, him or a 3rd party ..?? If he has no Right Of Way or interest then he cannot tell you how to do this. 
 

Do you have a party wall agreement .? And do you have a written agreement from the landowner who owns the Lane / drive to dig it up ..?

 

If so.. crack on ..  Heras fencing stops the neighbour - hire a rough arse Irishman as a groundworker and let them handle the neighbour relations …

 

2 hours ago, Maria said:

You are making assumptions whilst all there is to it, I've asked for examples as I thought people here would know

some of us do - but we aren’t contracted to you so the PI doesn’t cover more than general advice. 
 

Nosey / Badly informed neighbours are a nightmare - you need to be firm but fair and tbh if you have the permissions in place you crack on. Pandering to retired hasbeens will have you reaching for the gaviscon. 

[Maria]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Nope - not RAMS. He can only use the PWA to ensure his foundations are secure but he has to appoint a PWA surveyor or request it when you do the PW Agreement. 
 

Who owns the access ..? You, him or a 3rd party ..?? If he has no Right Of Way or interest then he cannot tell you how to do this. 
 

Do you have a party wall agreement .? And do you have a written agreement from the landowner who owns the Lane / drive to dig it up ..?

 

No PWA in place. And no written agreement from the lane owners, but they know and have no issues with it. They have given a formal wayleave to electricity board to lay the services. Other utilities said they don't need anything. 

 

The neighbour wants to use a surveyor.  He found one that would be happy to act on our behalf and even said that he can contribute to costs. The surveyor said he needs to see the documents before he confirms the price. 

 

Will it be reasonable for a surveyor to expect these documents? Is PWA likely cost me more, considering that I probably end up paying for a surveyor as well? 

 

I am just thinking,  should I try another surveyor (not through his channels) or shall I go to a lawyer to get him off my back? Or keep it amicable and get the contractor to comply with whatever he is asking?

 

 

[PeterW]

29 minutes ago, Maria said:

The surveyor said he needs to see the documents before he confirms the price. 

for what ..??? What exactly is he supposed to be doing ..?? As my surveyor will charge you £120/hr to stand and watch … 

 

32 minutes ago, Maria said:

Or keep it amicable and get the contractor to comply with whatever he is asking?

 

“I’d like them to work 10-2, but not on Tuesdays when Marjorie plays bridge …..” You don’t want to go there - why are you being nice if you have right of access etc as he will only make your life hell when you’re trying to build etc. It will become no lorries before 9, no deliveries after 3.. he knows the game and he’s playing you at it. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Maria said:

And no written agreement from the lane owners, but they know and have no issues with it.

Ok do your deeds not give you right of way to your plot ..? And right to lay and maintain services ..? If not.. what happens when the Lane owner sells up and you’re left wanting to dig a hole and the new owner says no..? Did your solicitor not pick this up when you bought the plot ..?? If not - that’s negligence. 

 

 

[Maria]

23 minutes ago, PeterW said:

for what ..??? What exactly is he supposed to be doing ..?? As my surveyor will charge you £120/hr to stand and watch 

 

 

Ok do your deeds not give you right of way to your plot ..? And right to lay and maintain services ..? If not.. what happens when the Lane owner sells up and you’re left wanting to dig a hole and the new owner says no..? Did your solicitor not pick this up when you bought the plot ..?? If not - that’s negligence. 

 

 

The plot is in my garden 🙂. I am basically building next to my home. I got right of way.  And the existing services in the lane are covering me and the lane owners. Utilities, I understand, have rights to go wherever they need to go -public or private land (I could be wrong).

 

£120 an hour... I assume they wouldn't stay and watch all day every day whilst the works are being done?

 

I suppose I'll call a lawyer tomorrow 😬

 

Just one more question... and thank you for being so patient... when I served notice initially with just a general description of works  - laying ducts and pipes/cables for such and such services, expected dates and duration, he came back saying the notice is invalid without proper drawings.  I only submitted a copy of utilities planned routes. Was I supposed to provide more info at that point? Should have I ignored him then?

 

Then if he doesn't agree, are we going to be in dispute? Would it mean that I can't start works anyway?

[PeterW]

8 hours ago, Maria said:

when I served notice initially with just a general description of works  - laying ducts and pipes/cables for such and such services, expected dates and duration, he came back saying the notice is invalid without proper drawings.

So was this for a Party Wall Agreement ..?? and was it done using the correct letters etc ..?? Did he come back within 14 days and  specifically dispute in writing or did he just try and tell you that you’re doing it wrong ..??

 

https://www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works/reaching-agreement-with-neighbours

 

You probably need to read all that first - and if you get solicitors involved then you need to get the right ones who know what they are talking about. 
 

9 hours ago, Maria said:

I am basically building next to my home. I got right of way.  And the existing services in the lane are covering me and the lane owners. Utilities, I understand, have rights to go wherever they need to go -public or private land (I could be wrong).

You are wrong … Utilities need wayleaves, and you need an easement yourself as your rights are to your existing property, not the new one ! When you split off a plot you need to extend the rights, plus get the land owner permission to grant right of access over the private road. 
 

Do you plan to live in this new property or sell it ..??

 

[jack]

14 hours ago, Maria said:

... then what's the point of this forum?

 

It's different for different people.

 

For example, some think the forum is about unpaid volunteers giving up their time to help people.

 

For others, it's about snapping at people trying to help, just because they don't like the answers they're getting.

[Maria]

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

So was this for a Party Wall Agreement ..?? and was it done using the correct letters etc ..?? Did he come back within 14 days and  specifically dispute in writing or did he just try and tell you that you’re doing it wrong 

Now I am getting a bit confused about the whole PWA . I've checked the info in the link provided  (thank you),  and don't see a mention of a PWA as such. I saw this: "If the Adjoining Owner gives written notice within 14 days consenting to the proposed works, the work (as agreed) may go ahead."

Is this is what you refer to? Not a fully drawn up document with conditions and clauses?

 

No, I haven't used the correct letter for my notice, and haven't attached any sections or drawings of the proposed trench position.  So he just told me the notice wasn't valid. 

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

You are wrong … Utilities need wayleaves, and you need an easement yourself as your rights are to your existing property, not the new one ! When you split off a plot you need to extend the rights, plus get the land owner permission to grant right of access over the private road. 
 

Do you plan to live in this new property or sell it ..??

 

Electricity board has asked for a wayleave from me and the lane owners.  Water and gas said they didn't need anything. 

 

The plot was split a few years back when we originally bought the property.  I need to check the deeds for access and right of way.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

 

I am not planning to sell it. I was going to move in, but will probably end up renting it for a while. 

[Carrerahill]

On 15/07/2022 at 13:18, Maria said:

Hello everyone, 

 

I apologise to those who keep seeing posts from me about this wretched trench... I considered adding replies to one of my previous posts but thought they weren't quite covering the question of method statement. 

 

Anyway, the trench for services is to be excavated in a shared drive with neighbours' garages sitting on both edges of the drive. The drive is roughly 3 meters wide, so the works are a subject to a party wall agreement. 

 

There are already existing services in the drive - water, gas, electrics,  BT.

 

One of the neighbours is a surveyor,  so he insists on covering all eventualities before he OKs the works.

 

We've had a chat yesterday and agreed on a min distance from both properties that they'd be happy with.

 

But he also wants a method statement detailing machinery, depths,  widths,  compaction methods, materials used and duration of works. 

 

Does anyone have any examples of method statements for these types of works?

 

I attach a drawing of the drive with position of utilities. The contractor will do the trial pits as well.

 

 

Many thanks 

Utility Detection Survey.pdf 620.88 kB · 11 downloads

Get your multidisciplinary civils contractor to change the name on the one they use every time and submit that for your trench. Then they will go and do it any way they see fit.

 

 

[Carrerahill]

On 16/07/2022 at 21:43, Maria said:

We plan to excavate within 3 meters from his property. Does he still not have rights to ask for documents? 

No.

 

I don't understand why you are letting him have so much authority.

[Carrerahill]

15 hours ago, Maria said:

I am just thinking,  should I try another surveyor (not through his channels) or shall I go to a lawyer to get him off my back? Or keep it amicable and get the contractor to comply with whatever he is asking?

It seems you want to smooth the way before starting. In which case, why not trying getting your contractor, yourself and your neighbour into a little informal meeting and discuss? If you appease him maybe he will back off a bit - make sure your contractor seems knowledgeable and can string meaningful sentences together. However, you might struggle to get him out as he will see it as a waste of time and want to just do the job. 

 

 

 

[Maria]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

Get your multidisciplinary civils contractor to change the name on the one they use every time and submit that for your trench. Then they will go and do it any way they see fit.

 

 

I am using a small contractor. He's got all the licenses and insurances but I do have doubts whether he'd have done method statements before.  Anyway,  I've asked him to draw one, and he should produce something.  I'll just have to see what he comes up with. 

 

That's why I wanted to see what others usually do, and if there are a lot of acceptable variants...

[Maria]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

No.

 

I don't understand why you are letting him have so much authority.

Because out of us 2, he is the one, unfortunately, who knows the rules. 

 

And to be honest,  I think I can't win this one. If he doesn't agree, I'd have to involve solicitors and surveyors - possibly more than one.

 

Or if I can manage to provide as much detail as I can, we can potentially resolve this with a help of one surveyor and split the costs as he suggested