Larder

[Weebles]

Sorry to be a bit thick but if we did use an Ecocent to vent into the larder and cool it why would the larder have to vent into a heated space? Can't we vent it to the outside?

[dpmiller]

two thoughts on that- negative pressure, wasted energy.

[dogman]

10 hours ago, Weebles said:

Sorry to be a bit thick but if we did use an Ecocent to vent into the larder and cool it why would the larder have to vent into a heated space? Can't we vent it to the outside?

I did a bit of an experiment yesterday with our Ecocent. Our room in roof gets very hot so i vented ecocent into the room for the day with windows closed and covered. The room was kept at about 18 deg while the other rooms were 26-27.

Our ecocent comes on when the water differential between top and bottom is 15deg so as JSH suggested it runs for 4-5 hours a day in total.

The issue re venting as dpmiller states with out a vent you are pumping into a sealed space. You have to vent somewhere. As you are extracting warm air from the house with the ecocent you need to return an equal amount of air to the house,If the house is airtight this will need to be from the larder. You cannot vent outside as you will then need a vent into the house to equal the pressure.

As the Ecocent only runs for an hour or so at a time the impact on the heat in the rest of the house will be minimal. If the vents are in the right place all you will be doing is pushing the warm air out.

None of this has been boffin proofed it is just my simple thinking.

[Ferdinand]

The larder in my previous Cottage was about 8ft by 4ft, and had three steps inside the room to be a semi-cellar.

 

Or put a big rockery or one of those sheet waterfalls on the outside.

 

F

[dpmiller]

Thinking about this again. Our design has a pantry space pretty much in the core of the house. Off the utility room, backing onto the stairwell. It'll be void of underfloor heat obviously. Here's what I'm thinking, please pick holes in it as you desire.

 

Sealed door. Thinking a secondhand UPVC external door, but what *is* the U value of a bog-standard eggbox external door?

Underscreed vent for fresh air supply

Ceiling vent for convective outflow.

say, 40mm PIR behind the PB.

screed separated from the utility at the threshold.

 

Now here's the question. What about building blocks up through a void in the underfloor insulation and pouring this bit of screed on them?

[Russell griffiths]

We also have a larder in our house now and will put one in the new house. 

I was thinking about running our main water into the floor area of the larder, now our water supply is very cold as it enters the house, could I put a radiator on the wall of the larder and have it mains water fed so it is cold to the touch, would that keep the air temp down in there. 

How about a piece of 32mm copper running just above skirting height below any shelves, running around the room linked to the incoming main. 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

We also have a larder in our house now and will put one in the new house. 

I was thinking about running our main water into the floor area of the larder, now our water supply is very cold as it enters the house, could I put a radiator on the wall of the larder and have it mains water fed so it is cold to the touch, would that keep the air temp down in there. 

How about a piece of 32mm copper running just above skirting height below any shelves, running around the room linked to the incoming main. 

 

I reckon it'd drop condensation.

[dpmiller]

depends how much water it's removing. Keep the box well sealed and there shouldn't be much, What about putting a wrap on the pipe to act as a wick, might be able to balance new condensation with a bit of evaporation?

[JohnW]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 13:56, dpmiller said:

Thinking about this again. Our design has a pantry space pretty much in the core of the house. Off the utility room, backing onto the stairwell. It'll be void of underfloor heat obviously. Here's what I'm thinking, please pick holes in it as you desire.

 

Sealed door. Thinking a secondhand UPVC external door, but what *is* the U value of a bog-standard eggbox external door?

Underscreed vent for fresh air supply

Ceiling vent for convective outflow.

say, 40mm PIR behind the PB.

screed separated from the utility at the threshold.

 

Now here's the question. What about building blocks up through a void in the underfloor insulation and pouring this bit of screed on them?

@dpmiller this sounds very similar to what we're thinking of designing into our new house...

 

We're thinking of having a kitchen cabinet dedicated as a pantry/larder. If we can't purchase a suitable cabinet we'll line the inside of the door and two sides with 60mm of insulation. There will be an inlet vent in the floor and extract vent at high level. The door from the kitchen will be air-tight and when the door is closed an extract fan will automatically run for a minute or two, drawing external air in through the floor level vent and expelling warm/moist out the high level vent.

 

Do any of you see any flaws in this plan or know of kitchen cabinets that can be purchased with air-tight doors and insulation?

 

Thanks

John

[Ferdinand]

If I were going for a cabinet or traditional larder (ie relying on chunky walls), I think I would want it outside the thermal envelope, possibly as part of a 'porch' or 'utility' area covering the back door, and also use the space as a bike store, possibly a cool room for shaggy dogs, wine store etc.

 

Another example of how it all needs to be thought about in advance.

 

Ferdinand

 

[Weebles]

Am digging up this old thread because we have now built the larder.  It is a PIR insulated add on to our MBC timber frame and is outside the thermal envelope.  Concrete slab is separated from the main house, no UFH.  It will be accessed via a passive standard external door (from the kitchen) so it is genuinely "outside" and acts as an extra room added onto the kitchen.  It has an internal square area of around 2.5m².  It is on the north side of the house, under and surrounded by very large trees and it never sees a ray of sunlight.  

We are using a gas boiler for heating the main house.  No ASHP.  There is no water supply to the larder. No MVHR extract in there.  No plans to artificially cool the space.

Planning on storing wine / beer, tins / jars, eggs, butter, fruit, veg and using the space to cool down leftovers / pastry / baked goods etc.

If it does get too hot in the summer months we will revert to putting some foodstuffs in the fridge. 

 

Need to do something about ventilation (before our render people start next week we need to put any penetrations out of the house).

My thoughts are 2 close-able vents (one high up, one low).  Does this sound sensible?

 

 

[TerryE]

On 12/11/2018 at 19:23, Weebles said:

Need to do something about ventilation (before our render people start next week we need to put any penetrations out of the house).

My thoughts are 2 close-able vents (one high up, one low).  Does this sound sensible? 

 

We had a fan assisted lower vent on our old larder.  We found this quite useful because we could purge the larder.  You could something like this one a simple timer so you could do this say 3-6am in the summer.

[JanetE]

Just to clarify, the fan drew cold air in from outside at a low level. The was also a vent high up to aid ventilation.

Edited November 20, 2018 by JanetE