Durisol - in administration

[Mako]

Agree with you, if there were so many problems the system would not last over 60years,

all I can think of it’s user error on site. I have looked at many systems but this one seems

to tick many boxes in performance. Airtightness, sound proofing and thermal mass are high on my agenda.

Durisol could not offer floors, EPS systems don’t offer thermal mass or floor systems, Isotex looks ok

but I feel too many blocks to keep in line, can’t be easy on site. 
other option I considered was  just poured concrete and insulate from the outside, than issues fixing into the

concrete won’t be easy.

what would you guys recommend?

 

[FM2015]

11 minutes ago, Mako said:

EPS systems don’t offer thermal mass or floor systems,

 

I'd do some more research.

[Mako]

On 14/05/2022 at 15:34, Russell griffiths said:

What I would ask yourself is why have you chosen velox. 
what does it bring to the party that other Icf products don’t. 
if you cannot think of one then why did you choose it. Do the same with all the other blocks. 
price is not a consideration. 
I was offered a substantial amount of blocks free, all I had to do was transport them, I declined and left them on the pallets. 
 

Well, I’m still in the research stage so any help is more than appreciated.

 

Main reason/issue really is the EPS on both sides of the wall for me, it’s the inability to fix into the EPS,

its the concrete that can’t be used as thermal mass (it’s like a fast car, limited to 60mph),

lack of floor systems availability compare to velox. 
 

Also I have been advised that soon Velox should be available in Panels like SIPS, craned off to position

and concreted, reducing on site time and installed by professionals. There are many reasons 

Search is still on, what would you recommend and why?

 

 

 

 

[Mako]

9 minutes ago, FM2015 said:

I'd do some more research.

How can they offer thermal mass if there is insulation from the inside?

Some offer floor systems, concrete planks, timber joists, few have concrete systems but nor many

that block the sound enough between floors.

[IanR]

21 minutes ago, Mako said:

How can they offer thermal mass if there is insulation from the inside?

 

What does "thermal mass" mean to you? It's not got a definition that everyone agrees on, and there's no units for it, making it open to interpretation.

 

A masonry skin, outside an insulated cavity, and therefore outside the thermal envelope could be considered "thermal mass". Similarly a poured concrete raft, sitting atop an EPS former and therefore within the thermal envelope could also be considered "thermal mass".

 

The effect of both is to dampen the diurnal temperature variation, and assist the insulation in stabilising the internal temperature of the house. Concrete sitting inside an EPS sandwich would be just as effective as if it were either fully inside or outside the insulation layer.

[Indy]

1 hour ago, Mako said:

Well, I’m still in the research stage so any help is more than appreciated.

 

Main reason/issue really is the EPS on both sides of the wall for me, it’s the inability to fix into the EPS,

its the concrete that can’t be used as thermal mass (it’s like a fast car, limited to 60mph),

lack of floor systems availability compare to velox. 
 

Also I have been advised that soon Velox should be available in Panels like SIPS, craned off to position

and concreted, reducing on site time and installed by professionals. There are many reasons 

Search is still on, what would you recommend and why?

 

 

 

 

 

Thermohouse is one option where they offer solutions for walls, floors and the roof - all based on their own system. 

 

When I've enquired (no practical experience unfortunately) - have been told that it's possible to fix directly into the EPS on both Nudura and Thermohouse blocks, as they add reinforcements within the blocks to allow this.

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, IanR said:

What does "thermal mass" mean to you? It's not got a definition that everyone agrees on, and there's no units for it, making it open to interpretation.

I think it comes from people who never measure anything.

False axiom as all that.

[Nickfromwales]

8 hours ago, Mako said:

EPS systems don’t offer thermal mass

All ICF systems hold the concrete core at 'arms length' with it being locked into the centre / core. "Thermal mass", as it has been nicknamed, would then exist in the floor and internal volume vs the fundamental walls themselves. It doesn't really matter tbh as all of the popular build systems typically end up clad internally in plasterboard, which actually has a very high 'heat capacity'.

Thermal mass is this heat capacity, eg a surface or materials ability to absorb, retain, and transmit heat energy to assist in maintaining an equal / ambient temperature balance. I'd choose ICF over a TF with a PIR core any day as it offers a lot more decrement delay, but the hands-down winner ( IMHO ) is a cellulose blown frame. After being in so many of these in varying states, eg from start of build through to occupation, that's what I would choose for my own house ( when I finally finish doing this for 3rd party's and do my own build that is  ). 

An ICF system could only really offer up its "thermal mass" if the concrete core was uninsulated internally and you wet ( plaster ) coated that for your finish, so this subject is utterly irrelevant afaic.

[SteamyTea]

An igloo has high mass, and, at 0°C, fantastic heat capacity.  The conductivity is very good as well.

[FM2015]

Original post hidden at poster's request

 

I have been advised, and rightly so, that some of my comments could be construed as deliberately denigrating a single product or manufacturer.

 

I stress here that all products can be used to successfully achieve the desired goals but if self building, everyone should seek full guidance at every stage being aware of all risks.  Risks that vary with every product.

 

I have tried to edit my post but been unable to do so. 

 

ICF is a trade in itself and anyone undertaking an ICF build for the first time should treat it with the respect it deserves.

 

On reflection, the main reason ICF and solid wall construction is niche is actually down to risk appreciation in the finance and insurance world, compounded by a lack of experienced professionals.  Both of which all manufacturers are trying to address.

 

The oil change analogy stands.  With respect to Durisol, I have personally a greater number of poor customer experiences than any other product HOWEVER this may or may not be representative and it is unfair and wrong for me to say otherwise.  The same can be said for any other ICF system.  

[SteamyTea]

@FM2015

I may have missed this in the past, but are you professionally involved in ICF?

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, FM2015 said:

...

With respect to Durisol, I have personally a greater number of poor customer experiences than any other product HOWEVER this may or may not be representative and it is unfair and wrong for me to say otherwise.  The same can be said for any other ICF system.  

 

Ahhh, at last, a balanced and thoughtful approach to a subject that - here -  is usually an arid slanging match. Thank you.

[Nickfromwales]

🙄

[jack]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

@FM2015

I may have missed this in the past, but are you professionally involved in ICF?

 

@FM2015 works in the industry, but has done a pretty good job of staying on the right side of the forum's rules against commercial advertising. 

[FM2015]

18 minutes ago, jack said:

 

@FM2015 works in the industry, but has done a pretty good job of staying on the right side of the forum's rules against commercial advertising. 

Only trying to help and advise.  Mostly to protect our industry and the people working with the products available.  Apologies if this thread sailed too close to the wind.

[JohnMo]

As many are aware I built with Durisol, as first time builder.  It was chosen for four reasons.

 

I could do it myself and had witnessed two builds underway prior to ordering, the two self builders were on top of what they were doing and I could freely ask questions.

 

Second, the build manual was clear easy to understand, as long as you follow the 6 layers then a pour and use the corner, end and normal blocks correctly there should be no issues

 

Third the system did not require any special props or much in the way support except with OSB screwed to cut joints and at corners. 

 

Very little rebar required.

 

I followed the instruction manual, had no blow outs, no sagging window or door openings, very little block movement during the pours.

 

I think most people have issues because they think they know what to do, don't read the manual, build too many rows between pours.

 

Only real criticism and thing I would change.

1, the blocks do not have parallel sides, this does lead to a bit of rework, until you realise.  Possible redesign of moulds could fix this

 

A thing not well covered in the manual is airtightness, this should be beefed up.

 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, jack said:

works in the industry

 

1 hour ago, FM2015 said:

Only trying to help and advise

Was not complaining, just that FM2015 seemed to know a fair bit about the different systems.  Bit like Craig and windows 

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

22 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

1, the blocks do not have parallel sides, this does lead to a bit of rework, until you realise.  Possible redesign of moulds could fix this

 

A thing not well covered in the manual is airtightness, this should be beefed up.

These do appear to be the main flaws, vs more uniform blocks like EPS systems. Woodcrete deffo needs a fair bit of putting right before external render can be directly applied, and it's deffo a good idea to parge all internal walls and dot'n'dab if you want a really good airtightness score plus level flat walls with 'minimum' fuss. Even 5-10mm out requires a lot of residual work, but that does happen with the EPS systems too, like Nudura ( only named because I've been working in a build with this system so can speak from direct experience ), but the EPS can simply be surformed, like the EWI installers do, to quickly get a nice flat surface.

EPS wins imho because it's non hygroscopic, and is probably what I would build with, that or twin-wall cellulose blown TF. 

[FM2015]

51 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

These do appear to be the main flaws, vs more uniform blocks like EPS systems. Woodcrete deffo needs a fair bit of putting right before external render can be directly applied, and it's deffo a good idea to parge all internal walls and dot'n'dab if you want a really good airtightness score plus level flat walls with 'minimum' fuss. Even 5-10mm out requires a lot of residual work, but that does happen with the EPS systems too, like Nudura ( only named because I've been working in a build with this system so can speak from direct experience ), but the EPS can simply be surformed, like the EWI installers do, to quickly get a nice flat surface.

EPS wins imho because it's non hygroscopic, and is probably what I would build with, that or twin-wall cellulose blown TF. 

Not all woodcrete or EPS or XPS blocks are born equal.  As someone has previously stated, the devil is in the detail.

 

@JohnMou

Surely the presence of rebar is a structural discussion almost entirely unrelated to the block type or manufacturer?

[Mako]

16 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

All ICF systems hold the concrete core at 'arms length' with it being locked into the centre / core. "Thermal mass", as it has been nicknamed, would then exist in the floor and internal volume vs the fundamental walls themselves. It doesn't really matter tbh as all of the popular build systems typically end up clad internally in plasterboard, which actually has a very high 'heat capacity'.

Thermal mass is this heat capacity, eg a surface or materials ability to absorb, retain, and transmit heat energy to assist in maintaining an equal / ambient temperature balance. I'd choose ICF over a TF with a PIR core any day as it offers a lot more decrement delay, but the hands-down winner ( IMHO ) is a cellulose blown frame. After being in so many of these in varying states, eg from start of build through to occupation, that's what I would choose for my own house ( when I finally finish doing this for 3rd party's and do my own build that is  ). 

An ICF system could only really offer up its "thermal mass" if the concrete core was uninsulated internally and you wet ( plaster ) coated that for your finish, so this subject is utterly irrelevant afaic.

Thermal mass, I have been told that woodcrete containing Cement is a good conductor of heat, allowing concrete core to charge and release the heat in real time. Is that not correct? Ideal situation would be poured concrete with insulation externally, but woodcrete offers the second best option as you can fix easily  into it as we’ll.

 

Isn’t plasterboard made of gypsum which has thermal insulating properties as it’s so soft?

 

Agree ICF better than TM in terms of thermal mass (although delayed) but where is the thermal mass in 

cellulose blown frame? What are the health implications of cellulose?

 

that’s what I was thinking Velox system with wet plaster was recommended cement based plaster, as gypsum based

plaster would again act as insulant.

 

it sounds like more thermal mass, more concrete in the house will help to deal with overheating which TM suffers with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mako]

On 15/05/2022 at 23:39, Indy said:

 

Thermohouse is one option where they offer solutions for walls, floors and the roof - all based on their own system. 

 

When I've enquired (no practical experience unfortunately) - have been told that it's possible to fix directly into the EPS on both Nudura and Thermohouse blocks, as they add reinforcements within the blocks to allow this.

Thank you for your help, I have looked at Thermohouse, do you know what loading can the reinforced EPS take?

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Mako said:

Isn’t plasterboard made of gypsum which has thermal insulating properties as it’s so soft?

As one of our original boffins once noted here, plasterboard actually has a very high specific heat capacity, so not quite cut and dry.

 

[Nickfromwales]

On 15/05/2022 at 23:39, Indy said:

have been told that it's possible to fix directly into the EPS on both Nudura and Thermohouse blocks, as they add reinforcements within the blocks to allow this.

The Nudura is from 'across the pond' so as @Russell griffiths found out, the embedded plastic spines are on imperial centres. To affix plasterboards at 1200x2400 you would need to apply horizontal counter battens rising on 300 / 400 / 600 OC's ( which also creates your service void if you don't want to bury cables flush into the EPS in conduit ) or you could fit 11 or 15mm OSB ( 1220 x 2440 ) and PB to that.  

Edited May 16, 2022 by Nickfromwales

[Nickfromwales]

15 minutes ago, Mako said:

Thank you for your help, I have looked at Thermohouse, do you know what loading can the reinforced EPS take?

Some useful numbers here

 

https://cordek.com/products/filcor

[Mako]

On 15/05/2022 at 23:13, IanR said:

 

What does "thermal mass" mean to you? It's not got a definition that everyone agrees on, and there's no units for it, making it open to interpretation.

 

A masonry skin, outside an insulated cavity, and therefore outside the thermal envelope could be considered "thermal mass". Similarly a poured concrete raft, sitting atop an EPS former and therefore within the thermal envelope could also be considered "thermal mass".

 

The effect of both is to dampen the diurnal temperature variation, and assist the insulation in stabilising the internal temperature of the house. Concrete sitting inside an EPS sandwich would be just as effective as if it were either fully inside or outside the insulation layer.

Hi Ian, well what I have researched correct me if I’m wrong, thermal mass like you say can be any dense product, with ability to absorb and store heat. They say concrete is probably the closest to ideal material considered for thermal mass, due to density, it can accumulate, store and transfer heat. More concrete you have available (exposed face, not insulated) better it can deal with fluctuation of temperatures. Apparently it’s all about timing, when you trying to prevent building from overheating for example, if you have applied plasterboards on the walls, or insulation internally covering the concrete

it will take a lot longer for the heat to transfer to the concrete core through the insulation, and also lo longer for the heat to react if the room gets colder (say at night). If the concrete was exposed it would react much faster.

In theory Internally insulated walls would not prevent from overheating similar to TM structures.

 

Thats my understanding of thermal mass

 

Brick outside of the Insulated envelope could be classed as thermal mass, but no good to you, as it doesn’t help

to stabilise your temperature internally. If it was inside of the thermal envelope it could be classed as thermal mass.

but because bricks and lightweight blocks have low density compared to concrete their heat capacity would be much lower,

compared to concrete. In layman’s term I would not be able to absorb great deal of heat when required.

 

That’s what I understood when researching  about Thermal mass