Another 'Cool Energy' heatpumps thread

[HughF]

52 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

the Coolenergy controller will happily run variable flow temperatures at different times of day, the four timeslots have programmable setpoints for all three modes. Weather comp then "adjusts" these numbers.

 

Plus the fan modes (high/low/night/pressure) alter the compressor's max speed too.

Now you mention that, I remember seeing this in the manual. I couldn't figure out if the flow temp was fixed when you did this, or whether the weather comp was active and nudged the flow temps up or down.

 

I feel a visit to Grimsby might be on the cards to have a detailed look at these controllers

[dpmiller]

Flow temp is fixed in Day mode, following the schedule, but is weather compensated in Low Speed. Not quite sure about Night Mode, If I get a chance this evening I'll delve into the installer menus and see what the parameters are for it.

[HughF]

Just got off the phone to Dave at CE, super helpful with my queries...

[Wil]

I use a Google Nest in the hall to call the heating pump on or off. This also enable the ‘call for heat’ from my CE Carel controller. This means the HP only runs if the buffer tank temp is low AND the heating pump is running. Which prevents the HP running just to ‘top up’ the buffer when the house is warm enough.

 

I run my primary HP at 45degrees for heating and the secondary in weather compensation mode (just looking at buffer temp) so that it only kicks in if the primary isn’t coping with the heat loss in the heating circuit and the buffer temp continues to drop. But this isn’t relevant for those with a single HP.

 

Edit: I just set back the Nest thermostat by 2 degrees (17) at night. Any programmable thermostat could do this. In winter the ‘learning element’ of the google was bringing the heating on VERY early in the morning to achieve the morning setpoint at 19. I just can’t bring myself to set it to 19 and leave the thermostat alone but in shoulder seasons that should be easier.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Wil

[HughF]

2 hours ago, Wil said:

I use a Google Nest in the hall to call the heating pump on or off. This also enable the ‘call for heat’ from my CE Carel controller. This means the HP only runs if the buffer tank temp is low AND the heating pump is running. Which prevents the HP running just to ‘top up’ the buffer when the house is warm enough.

 

I run my primary HP at 45degrees for heating and the secondary in weather compensation mode (just looking at buffer temp) so that it only kicks in if the primary isn’t coping with the heat loss in the heating circuit and the buffer temp continues to drop. But this isn’t relevant for those with a single HP.

 

Edit: I just set back the Nest thermostat by 2 degrees (17) at night. Any programmable thermostat could do this. In winter the ‘learning element’ of the google was bringing the heating on VERY early in the morning to achieve the morning setpoint at 19. I just can’t bring myself to set it to 19 and leave the thermostat alone but in shoulder seasons that should be easier.

So the nest turns on the heat pump and then shorts out the call for heat lines too? If I’m reading your message correctly.

[Wil]

On 05/05/2022 at 19:09, HughF said:

So the nest turns on the heat pump and then shorts out the call for heat lines too? If I’m reading your message correctly.

Yep, as the contact closes for the nest controller, it closes power onto the two port zone valve. Once that opens, it starts the pump. When the pump starts, I use a Shelly 1 to take the pump start voltage as it’s switch input and close it’s relay to close the volt free call for heat on the HP controller. 

 

The HP is then enabled and the controller decides whether it needs to run the HP of not depending on the temp of the buffer.

 

When the next call for heat drops (temp satisfied), it opens it’s contact and the zone valve, pump and HP call for heat all drop together. The HP controller will overrun if it needs to to avoid short cycling but this isn’t an issue in my house as there’s no such thing as a short cycle due to my heat losses.

[HughF]

2 hours ago, Wil said:

Yep, as the contact closes for the nest controller, it closes power onto the two port zone valve. Once that opens, it starts the pump. When the pump starts, I use a Shelly 1 to take the pump start voltage as it’s switch input and close it’s relay to close the volt free call for heat on the HP controller. 

 

The HP is then enabled and the controller decides whether it needs to run the HP of not depending on the temp of the buffer.

 

When the next call for heat drops (temp satisfied), it opens it’s contact and the zone valve, pump and HP call for heat all drop together. The HP controller will overrun if it needs to to avoid short cycling but this isn’t an issue in my house as there’s no such thing as a short cycle due to my heat losses.

Understood, so your demand side (room stat, zone valve, zone pump) and supply side (call for heat volt-free terminals, ASHP circ pump, buffer sensor) are working together. That seems sensible. 

[HughF]

CE have had a website update and are now also offering an R32 based unit that has EVI (Enhanced Vapour Injection) - which, from my understanding, offers improved COP at lower ambient air temperatures.

 

I'm heading to the Installer Show at the NEC next month to look at some equipment in person and will update once I've learnt more.

[Wil]

Just a note to watch on the CE pumps. 

 

I bought in October and self installed (with a plumber) in December last year. Both my pumps running fine until 2 weeks ago when all of a sudden my IVT18 tripped out and is refusing to start with a ‘HW Overcurrent’ issue. Chris has been really good and responsive (even at weekends) to emails asking for help. Sent me a controller update and logged on remotely to see what’s going on.

 

However remote diagnosis has been unable to fix the issue (‘it’s usually a supply or setting issue, we’ve never had a compressor fail’). Now the request is to remove the entire outdoor unit and ship it back to them (at their cost to be fair). However this means removing both pumps to get the second one out due to positioning and the associated plumbing and electrical works to do so. If I was non-technical this would be a complete non starter. Not to mention the physical requirements of moving a large unit on my own or paying for help to do so. Also a bit (!) disappointed it’s stopped for no reason (the second unit doing Heating only is fine so I’m happy it’s not a supply issue).

 

I deal with hundreds of VRVs and heat pumps on a daily basis at work and all parts are fully serviceable on site. In this case I’m told that the only option is to go back to the factory ‘because we have a test bay which would allow diagnosis not available on site’. This just doesn’t sound right.

 

TL;DR I have to send the whole external condenser back rather than have an engineer come and fix it. I understand they’re a small company struggling with huge demand, but I’m now out heating and HW for a few weeks (plus diagnosis time) and if it wasn’t summer, this would be a massive problem.

 

If you’re self installing these, it might be worth thinking about access if you’re required to send the unit back. I’m glad mine’s not on a roof! Hopefully it’s an easy fix and turnaround and it’ll be back to me soon.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Wil

[HughF]

Interesting to hear Wil, cheers. Compressor failure is indeed rare but I’d guess that’s certainly the cause of the hardware over current fault code. 
 

Mine will be easily accessible in the garden, not planning on sticking it on a roof.

 

Hope you get a resolution to your problem quickly, I’m sure you will, I’ve been super pleased with the help I’ve received from Chris so far.

[ProDave]

7 hours ago, Wil said:

I deal with hundreds of VRVs and heat pumps on a daily basis at work and all parts are fully serviceable on site. In this case I’m told that the only option is to go back to the factory ‘because we have a test bay which would allow diagnosis not available on site’. This just doesn’t sound right.

I had something similar with my first ASHP that was DOA.  They wanted me to uninstall it put it on a pallet and sent it back to them.  I protested that is ridiculous, you would not for instance be expected to take a gas boiler off your wall and send it back to be fixed.  An ASHP is an "installed product"

 

This was rectified when I eventually found who the parent company was and contacted the CEO.  Then they were happy so send me a replacement.

 

[Wil]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

I protested that is ridiculous, you would not for instance be expected to take a gas boiler off your wall and send it back to be fixed.  An ASHP is an "installed product"

Sadly I'm already talking to the CEO who is insisting I send it back. But your point is exactly correct, I wouldn't take a boiler off the wall to RTB so why an ASHP. I'm lucky I have a second and the technical know-how to change them over. If I was a standard consumer I'd be screwed.

 

15 hours ago, HughF said:

Compressor failure is indeed rare but I’d guess that’s certainly the cause of the hardware over current fault code. 

I wish it was, I have one site which has had 8 compressors and associated PCBs go in the last year! I asked Chris about this before I bought it too. 

 

Ah well, they're still helping at least so I suppose I better go get on with palletising it...

 

 

[dpmiller]

It's a disappointing situation for sure, but I'm confident that they want it back for good reason. I'd be pushing for a swapout if they *are* needing to sit in front of the unit for diagnostic or research purposes.

[HughF]

5 hours ago, Wil said:

 

 

I wish it was, I have one site which has had 8 compressors and associated PCBs go in the last year! I asked Chris about this before I bought it too. 

 

Ah well, they're still helping at least so I suppose I better go get on with palletising it...

 

 

Ouch, 8 compressor failures.... I assume they rotor locked and took the PCBs with them? 

[Radian]

On 08/07/2022 at 14:56, dpmiller said:

It's a disappointing situation for sure, but I'm confident that they want it back for good reason. I'd be pushing for a swapout if they *are* needing to sit in front of the unit for diagnostic or research purposes.

 

Just wondering how this turned out in the end?

[Wil]

It was away for 2- 3 weeks with what turned out to be a loose connector causing arcing and the overcurrent on the compressor (?). I had looked at the compressor connections and couldn’t see this, but to be fair I hadn’t pulled it apart for fear of voiding warranties.

 

It’s a shame that it couldn’t have been diagnosed on site as it would have saved everyone time and hassle, but it was picked up, fixed and returned to me so no complaints there. I think this is the issue for them that they’re selling like hotcakes (and seems like a genuinely good product) but don’t have the staff coverage to get out and support self installers. I suspect if I’d had it installed for me I’d have been referred to my installer at the outset. I don’t know how many official installers they have but I did ask if one was available before sending the HP back to Grimsby.

 

It’s back in and running happily since. I guess when the temperature drops and it actually gets some real use we’ll see how it goes.

 

Overall still positive about the units and their addition to my home.

[Wil]

On 08/07/2022 at 16:52, HughF said:

Ouch, 8 compressor failures.... I assume they rotor locked and took the PCBs with them? 

Sorry, missed this Hugh. Even if they didn’t take the PCB the engineers will only replace the compressors and PCBs together as they’re ‘matched at the factory’. Seems like a good way of wringing more cash out of a corporate customer…

 

^ Just to be clear, the units/ compressors that failed had nothing to do with CE and are related to my day job…

Edited September 8, 2022 by Wil

[HughF]

A small update - after visiting the Cool Energy stand at the NSBRC and showing my wife the size and noise of the 9kW model, I've placed an order.

 

My install will be a domestic retrofit running rads and UFH with a 150ltr slimline cylinder. I'm aiming for change out of £5k for all materials (ASHP, UVC, Pipe, Fittings, UFH mixer) and I'll be DIY'ing it next spring. Just got the new rads left to buy. We're replacing an 11kW Baxi Bermuda and heat loss calcs give 6.7kW at -3/21

 

Some googling seems to point pretty strongly to SPRSUN being the OEM for Cool Energy. Compare the SPRSUN manual attached to that from the CE website.

inverTec_Range_Manual_Version_6.6_Final.pdf sprsun-user-manual-for-dc-inverter.pdf

[Adam2]

@HughFis there not some new scheme where you get 5K off an ASHP if replacing a boiler? Since ours was signed off on the last days of the previous giveaway I didn't follow closely enough what the current incentives are. My CE ASHP pump has been up and running a few months now and all good really, just sits thee doing its job - may well look more at opimisations at some point but have painting to do seeing as decorators don't know what "good" looks like 🙂  

[HughF]

13 minutes ago, Adam2 said:

@HughFis there not some new scheme where you get 5K off an ASHP if replacing a boiler? Since ours was signed off on the last days of the previous giveaway I didn't follow closely enough what the current incentives are. My CE ASHP pump has been up and running a few months now and all good really, just sits thee doing its job - may well look more at opimisations at some point but have painting to do seeing as decorators don't know what "good" looks like 🙂  

Yeah, the BUS scheme. You’ve got to go through the hoops with some MCS certified installer rubbish and end up paying three times as much as if you’d just bought the gear yourself. It's just not practical for me to use an outside contractor on my retrofit job for various reasons.

 

Encouraging to hear you've reached the stage where you're all up and running - glad to hear it's performing as expected.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by HughF

[dpmiller]

Yep, they're definitely a version of the Sprsun unit

[HughF]

7 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

Yep, they're definitely a version of the Sprsun unit

I've been wondering if there is any possibility of using the Carel th-tune panel in conjunction with the pGD1 to provide room temp control using the full suite of Carel parts.

 

th-Tune (carel.com)

 

Not sure if that's just for a2a units

[dpmiller]

Good Q. But adding zoning might be a complexity too far...

[JohnMo]

If you can run Weather Compensation, do you need a room thermostat, just balance the flow rates to get the room temp you require.

 

If you have thermostats in the room, use simple ones to call for heat, but use them as limit stops, instead of a thermostat in the normal terms.  So if the WC is set to give you 20 degrees, set the thermostat at 22.

[HughF]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

Good Q. But adding zoning might be a complexity too far...

I don’t need zoning, we have all our internal doors open and it’s only 100m2.