Another 'Cool Energy' heatpumps thread

[Adam2]

For those that question the accredited installer piece - this is not necessarily meaning MCS and does not mean an excessive cost. I had a price from a Cool Energy accredited installer who was also MCS at ballpark 1.8K for install of UVC/Buffer/ASHP and various connections into the rest of the system on a new build. This including the MCS paperwork. As it happened I think the installer didn't want to travel my way in March as probably had plenty of more local work with the RHI scheme ending so I ended up using my own plumber which may have saved a bit but then I paid for an inspection which equaled things out. Total about 6K parts and call it 2K install so ~7K all in and RHI payments (fingers crossed) to cover that.

 

I'd say overall I'm a happy customer - originally I was looking at the more common well known brands and the pricing was pretty high in comparison. Support was very responsive and always very positive attitude from them so I'd recommend - BUT mine has only been running the past few weeks so not a long term endorsement or anything. With many things I'm happy to buy from China/wherever but something you can't send back (140kgs ASHP) I'd rather get locally just in case 🙂

 

[HughF]

Adam, thanks for your input, appreciate it. May I ask whereabouts in Dorset you are?

 

I've been communicating with a few suppliers in China and they nearly all have an MOQ that makes it slightly less of an incentive to import just for my own install. And the pricing isn't far off the retail for the Cool Energy units by the time you've added Vat on the import and handling by my air-freight courier.

 

£3k for the 9kW inverter machine looks like a fair deal now. Is this the unit you have?

[Adam2]

7 minutes ago, HughF said:

£3k for the 9kW inverter machine looks like a fair deal now. Is this the unit you have?

I have the bigger iVT-18 unit - double fans

 

I'm in Poole, welcome to visit if passing.

 

 

[HughF]

2 minutes ago, Adam2 said:

I have the bigger iVT-18 unit - double fans

 

I'm in Poole, welcome to visit if passing.

 

 

I'd very much appreciate taking you up on that offer at some point, I'm over the water in Purbeck. I'll drop you a PM

[HughF]

Heat loss calcs done for the building in it’s current state (planning IWI in a few north facing walls), using the dream heat pump calculator spreadsheet, and I come out at 7kW.

 

Which seem reasonable as I currently heat the place with a 11kW non condensing boiler which seems to consume about 7.5kW of gas when it’s running (based on my smart meter display)…

 

Any recommendations for a 7-8kW unit that’s up to modern specs, r32, inverter, decent weather comp controller?

[JohnMo]

Noticed dream heat pumps are doing inverter ones now.

[HughF]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Noticed dream heat pumps are doing inverter ones now.

Huh, so they are. £1800 or best offer for the 8kW unit. That’s tempting. I’ll see if they have any installation manual and/or controller details available.

[HughF]

3 hours ago, HughF said:

Heat loss calcs done for the building in it’s current state (planning IWI in a few north facing walls), using the dream heat pump calculator spreadsheet, and I come out at 7kW.

 

Which seem reasonable as I currently heat the place with a 11kW non condensing boiler which seems to consume about 7.5kW of gas when it’s running (based on my smart meter display)…

 

Any recommendations for a 7-8kW unit that’s up to modern specs, r32, inverter, decent weather comp controller?

EDIT: My mistake, it is the Freedom heatpump calculator spreadsheet I have used. Apologise for the error. I've attached it here, and a link to how to use it can be found at: 

 

1893778935_2021FreedomHeatPumpstoolkitV3.3forallinstallers-Copy.xlsx

[HughF]

On 17/04/2022 at 18:49, HughF said:

Huh, so they are. £1800 or best offer for the 8kW unit. That’s tempting. I’ll see if they have any installation manual and/or controller details available.

I’ve made contact with the seller through eBay and am hoping to get hold of a installation and controller manual.

[JohnMo]

I asked the same question through eBay about a 3kW unit.  They said eBay didn't allow them to send the info.

 

My question to them

 

"Hi do you have a data sheet for 3 and 5kW heat ops please. "

 

Their reply

 

"We do have the heat pump user manual which has all the information but ebay won't let us send it to you, they say it's against their rules and policies..

 

Thank you.":

[dpmiller]

Don't ask the question through ebay then...

 

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/index.html

[HughF]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

Don't ask the question through ebay then...

 

http://www.dreamheatpumps.co.uk/index.html

Thanks for that, I've asked the question direct as I received the same response as @JohnMo

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

"We do have the heat pump user manual which has all the information but ebay won't let us send it to you, they say it's against their rules and policies..

 

Thank you.":

Did they charge you for that?

I see they charge 3p/minute for telephone calls, even if placing an order.

[JohnMo]

I have gone through the online question bit.  No answer so far, not paying them to get basic info.

[HughF]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

I have gone through the online question bit.  No answer so far, not paying them to get basic info.

Agreed, need the installation and controller manual before I make any decision. If I’m not going to heat my ‘spare’ 500ltr buffer tank, then I need an inverter machine with a decent weather comp controller. Looking at the manuals should give me that info.

 

If I make use of my spare buffer and add a DHW coil in the top (cut the top off, weld it back up) then I’ll likely just buy a fixed speed model and charge the buffer as required.

[HughF]

The user manual for the Dream r32 inverter heat pump is attached. Happy reading everyone

ESDAW-8KH-1DC.pdf

 

EDIT: It would appear that the controller is fixed to the unit, and just has a single flow temperature setting, no mention of a DHW call or a CH call for heat in the manual. It also appears that the flow temperature can be set only as high as 40 degrees C (parameter P3).

 

Both these things make it pretty useless for installing in a typical british home where we would expect to be able to get the flow temp up for a DHW coil, and to have a control panel mounted somewhere on the wall.

Edited April 19, 2022 by HughF

[JohnMo]

Got the manual for the non inverter one, it can go up to 55 and has no phone App.

 

But all the limitations are the same.  Single temperature, no external call for heat etc.  Does seem to have a timer and cooling pre configured.

 

 

[HughF]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Got the manual for the non inverter one, it can go up to 55 and has no phone App.

 

But all the limitations are the same.  Single temperature, no external call for heat etc.  Does seem to have a timer and cooling pre configured.

 

 

Interesting…. Almost as equally useless as the inverter driven one then, unless you’re charging a thermal store or a sunamp pcm43.

[Radian]

17 hours ago, HughF said:

EDIT: It would appear that the controller is fixed to the unit, and just has a single flow temperature setting, no mention of a DHW call or a CH call for heat in the manual. It also appears that the flow temperature can be set only as high as 40 degrees C (parameter P3).

4-wire plug-in lead to connector CN6. Probably RS485 so easily extended to bring indoors. Unpopulated CN8 alongside probably duplicates function.

[HughF]

3 hours ago, Radian said:

4-wire plug-in lead to connector CN6. Probably RS485 so easily extended to bring indoors. Unpopulated CN8 alongside probably duplicates function.

Good point... But I think with the other issues, the oddly low max. flow temp, and the lack of a heat/dhw call differentiation, it's a pass for me.

[HughF]

Can someone check my maths:

 

As per the attached, 20134kWh of gas through the smart meter for 14 months of usage

20134/17 = 1438

1438 * 12 = 17257 kWh/12 months

 

In our current non-condensing baxi back boiler on a Y plan, assuming 75% efficiency:

 

17257*0.75 = 12942 kWh of heat energy delivered to the property.

 

To generate that with an ASHP with an SCOP of 3.5:

 

12942/3.5 = 3697kWh of electricity required, at current prices for the year - 3697 * 0.28 = £1035.42

 

Compared to buying 17257kWh of natural gas at the new rate of 7.9p/kWh = 17257*0.079 = £1363.30

 

So, a £330 saving per annum (not including the gas standing charge, which can go as we cook on electricity). Obviously there is the capital investment, but the boiler dates from the mid 80's and the rads are all in need of replacement anyway, so that needs to be done regardless.

 

Seems like a no-brainer...

[IanR]

I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with your working, but...

 

Shouldn't you compare to a replacement condensing gas boiler at circa 90% efficient, rather than your existing non-condensing boiler?

 

26 minutes ago, HughF said:

In our current non-condensing baxi back boiler on a Y plan, assuming 75% efficiency:

 

75% efficient non-condensing gas boiler v. 350% efficient ASHP = 466.7% efficiency improvement

90% efficient condensing gas boiler v. 350% efficient ASHP = 388.9% efficiency improvement

 

7.9p per kWh Gas v. 28p per kWh electricity = 354% higher cost

 

Condensing gas boiler is still higher day to day running costs, but closer. 

 

If you already plan to replace the rads and cylinder, I'd go with ASHP as I view electricity costs to be more stable in the future. But if you only have to replace the rads for an ASHP install, and they will last 10 years, then perhaps another gas boiler is the better cost option.

Edited April 20, 2022 by IanR

[SteamyTea]

25 minutes ago, HughF said:

20134/17 = 1438

Should that be /14

 

Only got as far as that.

[HughF]

10 minutes ago, IanR said:

I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with your working, but...

 

Shouldn't you compare to a replacement condensing gas boiler at circa 90% efficient, rather than your existing non-condensing boiler?

 

 

75% efficient non-condensing gas boiler v. 350% efficient ASHP = 466.7% efficiency improvement

90% efficient condensing gas boiler v. 350% efficient ASHP = 388.9% efficiency improvement

 

7.9p per kWh Gas v. 28p per kWh electricity = 354% higher cost

 

Condensing gas boiler still higher day to day running costs, but closer. 

 

If you already plan to replace the rads and cylinder, I'd go with ASHP as I view electricity costs to be more stable in the future. But if you only have to replace the rads for an ASHP install, and they will last 10 years, then perhaps another gas boiler is the better cost option.

I'd need to up-size the rads anyway if I was replacing the current boiler with a new condensing one, to get advantage of the lower loop temps to push the boiler into condensing mode. The current rads/cylinder are in a bad shape anyway, so they would be replaced regardless of what heat source I used.

 

I'm planning more investment in the property in the shape of as much solar as I can fit onto the south facing roof, so that sways in in the direction of ashp+uvc vs combi (which would be the gas option).

 

Capital cost is less of a concern than running costs, the house is paid for, we're never moving and I make good coin. I think I could DIY the ASHP + UVC + rad upgrade for about £5k, vs probably 2-2.5k for a full combi swap, which I'd have to find a gas safe engineer to do, and takes up space in the bathroom.

Edited April 20, 2022 by HughF

[HughF]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Should that be /14

 

Only got as far as that.

Yes it should... well spotted