What's a reasonable build time in these unreasonable times, and what can I do to improve things?

[ToughButterCup]

Sounds like some of you are starting your second childhood.......

[SteamyTea]

Just now, ToughButterCup said:

Sounds like some of you are starting your second childhood.......

Only when this one is finished with.

 

(Childhood's End is my favourite book)

Edited May 10, 2022 by SteamyTea

[puntloos]

One thing I'm missing in this discussion is 'what to do about it'.

 

- Get single-team builders, so they won't have to prioritize (and you occasionally lose out)?

- Demand builders take pictures of any piece of work before they move on?

- Buy stuff way ahead of time?

 

Essentially- assuming some... laziness/malice/incompetence at builders, what can we do to minimize the damage?

 

..

Edited June 2, 2022 by puntloos

[Pocster]

3 hours ago, puntloos said:

Essentially- assuming some... laziness/malice/incompetence at builders, what can we do to minimize the damage?

Nothing 🙄

[JohnMo]

On 10/05/2022 at 08:14, ToughButterCup said:

 

Change  might  above for is  and I agree with you.

 

And - to me - the cause is simple. The English education system is the root cause. Young people in the Secondary Education system are locked into schooling  in one of two (or three if you count Private schools) types - academic or not academic.  That divide causes an almost irrevocable split between people who, until 12 years of age, went to the same school. Suddenly one group is told they are 'better' than the other group.

 

Between the groups, globally there is no parity of esteem.  Success is going to (locally) a grammar school. And few  seem to recognise that (also locally) that there are excellent secondary schools. 

 

I know I bang this drum an awful lot, but the German Secondary Education system has a lot to offer. Young people can swap school type (academic, practical, practical-theoretical)  at the end of each academic year. That leads to parity of esteem between the groups. Young people with A Levels (Abitur) are held in the same regard as those with practical qualifications. 

To add to this, other countries, Germany, Austria for example, require a long detailed apprenticeship, to allow you to practice professionally as builder, joiner, plumber, electrician (in fact most hands on trades).  Here many go through apprenticeships which are much shorter, they not compulsory. Here in the UK, anyone can call them self a builder or just about any trade if they want.

[Bitpipe]

10 hours ago, puntloos said:

One thing I'm missing in this discussion is 'what to do about it'.

 

- Get single-team builders, so they won't have to prioritize (and you occasionally lose out)?

- Demand builders take pictures of any piece of work before they move on?

- Buy stuff way ahead of time?

 

Essentially- assuming some... laziness/malice/incompetence at builders, what can we do to minimize the damage?

 

..

 

All builders will have multiple jobs on the go unless you have pockets deep enough to buy them out of any other obligations. It's their way of spreading the risk.

 

Also, good luck getting trades to document work to your satisfaction. Are you going to throw them off the job if they don't?

 

Buying some long lead items in advance is a good strategy but you need secure dry storage or it will get nicked or more likely damaged (weather, machines etc).

 

This is one advantage of TF in that you can order windows as soon as your CAD plans are locked as the apertures will be factory made and should not change.

 

My advice is either to live on site or as close to it as possible and be there every day to passively observe and be on hand for clarifications etc. It's a fine line, you wan't to avoid micro management and let them get on with the job but not give them enough space to go awry.

 

I found a routine of asking what the plan was for the day (or for the week on a Monday), making sure they had what they needed, popping in a few times to look around and catching them before they left was an effective strategy. Have a tidy up on your own and see what's been done and if you're happy with it. Then feedback next morning and rinse repeat.

 

You also want to be seen as approachable for 'bad news', taking a pragmatic view and being solution vs blame orientated. Otherwise they just won't tell you and things will get covered up.

 

If you are out of sight, you will be out of mind.

[PeterW]

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

Demand builders take pictures of any piece of work before they move on?

And do what ..?? Are you an expert ..?? What if the bottom 2 courses of an 8 course block wall aren’t to your liking ..? Are you wanting the whole lot taken down and redone and at who's cost ..??

 

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

Essentially- assuming some... laziness/malice/incompetence at builders, what can we do to minimize the damage?

Build a relationship and trust. Talk to them, explain they are building your dream and not just throwing up just another box. Buy the bacon cobs on a Friday morning, make a brew occasionally… pick up a brush and do some tidying … but above all, treat them like decent humans who are earning a living doing something you either can’t or don’t want to do …

 

Finally …  don’t assume they are all the same please, it will get you nowhere… trades talk, and if the builder thinks you’re an arsehole, then the local trades will all soon know too … 

[joe90]

+1 to what @PeterW says above, perhaps I was lucky but my builders were brilliant, i worked with them, helped where possible, kept out if their way when required, made the brews and it paid dividends in their attitude to their work 👍

[SteamyTea]

46 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Finally …  don’t assume they are all the same please

Really a matter of asking the right questions before employing them.

Maybe we need @ToughButterCup to make up one if his many, many, lists.

A set of 'conversational questions that drill down through the skill sets to find out if someone is SB or BS.

 

[PeterW]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Really a matter of asking the right questions before employing them.

Totally agree with this - downside is a lot of people don’t understand the language or terms used, and a lot of good builders can’t explain in words what good looks like ..!! Don’t go quoting “roof to BS1234 etc” as they will have no clue ..! And tbh most customers don’t know what good looks like, and most can’t tell if stuff is done to the spec the architect/AT/SEng/QS wrote anyway … it’s one of the reasons we don’t do direct to client work… 

[SteamyTea]

29 minutes ago, PeterW said:

downside is........................

It would be a guide for people that bother to read it, on here.  We cannot educate the world.

 

Thinking a bit more about it, really need an ex copper to ask questions, they know how to go about it.  I think we have an ex copper on here.

 

The basic questioning technique when you first meet someone new is always useful.

Who, What, Where, When, Why + How

 

[puntloos]

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

 

All builders will have multiple jobs on the go unless you have pockets deep enough to buy them out of any other obligations. It's their way of spreading the risk.

Which is fair enough. 

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

Also, good luck getting trades to document work to your satisfaction. Are you going to throw them off the job if they don't?

Also fair point I guess, but it's also in their interest once they start working together with e.g. an electrical team. If they have evidence they did something right then there's no discussion on a dispute?

 

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

Buying some long lead items in advance is a good strategy but you need secure dry storage or it will get nicked or more likely damaged (weather, machines etc).

How much storage would be reasonable? A garage's worth? 

 

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

My advice is either to live on site or as close to it as possible and be there every day to passively observe and be on hand for clarifications etc. It's a fine line, you wan't to avoid micro management and let them get on with the job but not give them enough space to go awry.

 

Well, I do live close (within a mile) but do still have a dayjob.

 

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

I found a routine of asking what the plan was for the day (or for the week on a Monday), making sure they had what they needed, popping in a few times to look around and catching them before they left was an effective strategy. Have a tidy up on your own and see what's been done and if you're happy with it. Then feedback next morning and rinse repeat.

Plan for the week is certainly reasonable, and I would walk by the site pretty much every other day.

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

You also want to be seen as approachable for 'bad news', taking a pragmatic view and being solution vs blame orientated. Otherwise they just won't tell you and things will get covered up.

Agreed, I hope I do come across that way.

On 03/06/2022 at 09:25, Bitpipe said:

If you are out of sight, you will be out of mind.

 

Absolutely fair, thanks for your response. I do think that you are a very hands-on style person where I am going to have to be a bit further removed, hence I'm trying to build a trusting relationship. It wouldn't be quite as good as being 100% there every day but hopefully a proper builder with pride in their work would not just screw around because the 'boss' isn't there every single second.

 

Also hoping some legwork from e.g. building control would help against the greatest screwups.. 

[puntloos]

On 03/06/2022 at 12:08, SteamyTea said:

It would be a guide for people that bother to read it, on here.  We cannot educate the world.

 

Thinking a bit more about it, really need an ex copper to ask questions, they know how to go about it.  I think we have an ex copper on here.

 

The basic questioning technique when you first meet someone new is always useful.

Who, What, Where, When, Why + How

 

I'd certainly bother to read it.. how can we put this together? And Why not? And When can we have it done? How can I help? (see.. I'm learning.. ) 

 

Seriously though, indeed I'm at the stage where indeed those right questions matter, and I certainly want to not try somehow to be "one of the builder boys in spirit" in such a fake way that it's offputting. I do think I work from a general sense of respect and appreciation for the work, but I don't think that is something you can teach (meaning: I might be bad at it but I don't think a few words on a forum will help me change that )

 

Still would certainly like to hear what sorts of questions show the right type of interest, I usually go the way of 'how can I make your life easier, how do you want me to work with you, what drives you, makes you happy (eg efficiency, quality, performing a service, working with good people..). Ha perhaps also avoid asking about Brexit

[Bitpipe]

On 11/06/2022 at 13:13, puntloos said:

Which is fair enough. 

Also fair point I guess, but it's also in their interest once they start working together with e.g. an electrical team. If they have evidence they did something right then there's no discussion on a dispute?

 

Well yes and no, we had a sparky who was extremely diligent and photographed eventing and 6 years on can still, from memory, tell us where things are. Plumber was great but just did not operate like that. They spent a day together onsite to divvy up responsibility for overlapping jobs like the heating system but the reality is what has been built is the 'facts'.

 

 

 

On 11/06/2022 at 13:13, puntloos said:

How much storage would be reasonable? A garage's worth? 

 

 

Depends how big and secure A 10-20ft container is better  - insulated is best with some kind of damp control system (damp stick).

 

On 11/06/2022 at 13:13, puntloos said:

Absolutely fair, thanks for your response. I do think that you are a very hands-on style person where I am going to have to be a bit further removed, hence I'm trying to build a trusting relationship. It wouldn't be quite as good as being 100% there every day but hopefully a proper builder with pride in their work would not just screw around because the 'boss' isn't there every single second.

 

Also hoping some legwork from e.g. building control would help against the greatest screwups.. 

 

It's not screw-ups really but usually making ad-hoc decisions on how to do something, where to put something and defaulting to the 'usual way' of doing things vs an alternate approach you have specified. However diligent, trades are always under time pressure so won't spend ages confirming or trying to hunt you down, they'll just get on with it.