New member in need of a detached Garage/Workshop/Office

[AlexGe]

Hello everyone!

I’m  a very capable DIYer (restoring cars, welding, blacksmithing, electrics and electronics) and I’ve recently purchased a property in North Wales with my partner. We got very lucky; it’s a one acre plot with a 1930s dormer bungalow. Sadly there’s no garage.
 

And I’m into cars, in fact I’m paying classic car storage which is annoying me. I also like to tinker, and I work remotely from home. So I need a garage, which will serve as a work shop and ultimately should have a mezzanine which serves as my office/study.

Due to the nature of the plot (amazing views in West, south and east) I only want to put a big garage near the north east side where our neighbour is a pub that we share a car park with, and from which I’ve got access to the road. Also due to this being my first ever house and the mortgage being substantial, I can’t really afford to spend tens of thousands; only use some savings and take a reasonable personal loan, so I think £35K would be my current budget.

I’ve done some research and I believe that rules out anything that’s brick built or timber built. In fact I’m starting to think that the only realistic option is a steel frame, clad with modern cement or composite panels, and a lot of diy aside from ground works and foundations.

 

Im a bit lost as to where to start. I’ve been getting quotes for steel frame buildings, done a CAD design and asked a friend who’s an architect to do some proper designs.
 

I’d definitely need a permit; but I wanna build within 2 meters from the boundary but further than 1m from it, a workshop that’s going to be 5m to 6m tall.

 

The rear boundary is agricultural (a farming field) at the front there’s a B road at about 30 meters, and aside from the pub who’s not bothered by me building a garage I don’t have anyone else nearby.
 

I don’t know what my chances are of actually getting permission, I’ve been told I won’t be able to get permit for a drive to the road due to Flintshire city council being very strict.

 

The footprint would be minimum 8m by 7m although I may be able to go up to 10m by 9m. Did I mention there’s a small stone building in front and a half collapsed stone building at the side? I’d rather not destroy them as they date back to the 1800s, but they aren’t listed.

 

I need the height to put a car ramp and car stacker in, as well as have a large enough mezzanine to spend the working hours.

Where should I start from ? I’ve done some measuring using a tape and a laser distance meter and then took it all to the land registry map and measured again. I think after I have a design I should talk to the city council and see what they think.

 

Quotes for a steel building of that size where £70K + VAT, but in reality I can use builders to lay foundations and put the steel frame up, and then slowly clad it and roof it without a rush.
 

Is that realistic or is it a pipe dream? I’d want it insulated with heating and plumbing eventually but if I can store a few cars that would be a good first step as storage costs me £1500 a year already which is the real urgent issue. Meaning that as long as I can put walls, a roof on and some doors/windows, I can wait to complete the interior later on.

 

I appreciate any feedback, positive or negative! Regards, Alex

Edited January 22, 2022 by AlexGe

[nod]

Some pictures and dimensions would help 

35 k sounds healthy for a block and block- Render  garage Depending on size Steel is very expensive at the moment 

[AlexGe]

Hello!

 

Dimensions are:

worst case: 7m width, 8m length, 5m height (ridge) and 3m eaves. That's 2m from the boundary, and the garage right on the stone building and the lean-to demolished.

 

most probable case: 9m width, 10m length, 5m height (ridge) and 2.5 eaves. That's 1m from the boundary, 1m from the stone building and the lean-to somehow gets incorporated as a feature.

 

ideal: 10m width, 10m length, 6m height, 4m eaves; 1m from the boundary, somehow I incorporate the stone building and the lean-to to be part of the garage or to complement it all.

Front side (I'm facing East); it would have to go behind the stone building, and either up to, or over the collapsed lean-to.
Shed will be taken out as well as the vegetation. You may be able to see the boundary at the back (fence).

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by AlexGe

[AlexGe]

Left side far (I'm facing south); the property includes the area with the vegetation and trees and extends further than the pallet and fence you can see (another 7.5 meters).
The stone building on the right should be left intact. It isn't listed but it is very old and I'd rather not demolish it. Vegetation and trees would be removed.
You can just about see the shed behind the trees and the lean-to in the far end.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by AlexGe

[AlexGe]

Right side (looking towards North, e.g., the pub car park). You can see the lean-to on the left, shed behind it, and just about the boundary fence to the right. There's a large field behind. Behind the front fence (where the pallet is) I've got another 7.5m to the boundary, but I'd also need some space to maneuver the cars in and out (unless the garage door faces the entrance which is an option).

 

 

[AlexGe]

I made this using an online sketcher, the idea being to show the location and available space. Maybe it helps.

 

[SteamyTea]

Can't help with the costings, but.

For a few hours car restoring, @Onoff will give you storage.

In return he will give much advice about finishing of a bathroom restoration.

[Simplysimon]

we put a 6x9m steel portal frame a couple of years back and it cost a hell of a lot less than £70k+ even with the price of steel going up. you will/should be able to do a lot of it yourself, it's just big meccano. 1m3 pads for steel bases can be levelled with a water level, that's what i did as i don't have an out door laser, and a manitou to lift the steel, see a friendly farmer. go for fibre cement roof to stop condensation, i know you get anti- con. roofing but fibre is much quieter in the rain. plenty of places do roller doors, either elec or manual.https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185267209428?

https://www.steelbuildings.co.uk/products/steel-building/? a bit smaller than you're looking at but also a lot cheaper! shutter for slab and get and two lorries of on-site mix, don't forget to put a dpm down.

 

[Roger440]

Id be looking at insulated cladding on something like that. It will add cost, but it will be sooooo, much nicer!

 

And if you insulate, wack some underfloor heating pipes in when you do the base, even if you dont use/cant afford it now. Thank me later..........

 

That said, a concrete slab is a big chunk of budget. If its steel, as per simplysimon says, concrete pads will allow the building to go up. Then for a floor,  use block paving. Easy to lay, and much cheaper as you can do that yourself easily. Does depend on your lift(s) though. A 2 poster would need concrete, but again, you could do it with 1m3 blocks.

[Russell griffiths]

I’ve built a couple of these steel framed workshops 12m by 6m last one. I brought the steel c sections from a steel supplier and then had the angled corners and top sections bent to the angle I wanted. 
holes drilled on site and bolted together. 
no need for big pads under the legs, just a floor slab that is thicker in the location of the legs. 
I cannot see why you can’t build what you want for £20 grand all done. 

[AlexGe]

Thank you al, this is really encouraging and well motivating!
Out of curiosity, what would the difference be if I was to build it using breeze blocks, cost wise as time-wise I know it takes longer.

Yes the foundations would need to be able to take a considerable amount of weight, as a car with ramp is easy more than two tonnes, and a car stacker with cars is more than that.
 

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

I’ve built a couple of these steel framed workshops 12m by 6m last one. I brought the steel c sections from a steel supplier and then had the angled corners and top sections bent to the angle I wanted. 
holes drilled on site and bolted together. 
no need for big pads under the legs, just a floor slab that is thicker in the location of the legs. 
I cannot see why you can’t build what you want for £20 grand all done. 

Was that with cladding and roof included or just the frame?

 

On 24/01/2022 at 21:42, Roger440 said:

Id be looking at insulated cladding on something like that. It will add cost, but it will be sooooo, much nicer!

 

And if you insulate, wack some underfloor heating pipes in when you do the base, even if you dont use/cant afford it now. Thank me later..........

 

That said, a concrete slab is a big chunk of budget. If its steel, as per simplysimon says, concrete pads will allow the building to go up. Then for a floor,  use block paving. Easy to lay, and much cheaper as you can do that yourself easily. Does depend on your lift(s) though. A 2 poster would need concrete, but again, you could do it with 1m3 blocks.

 

I would consider concrete pads if there is a way to secure them together, as there will be some serious loads from multiple cars stacked or ramped up.
I suspect concrete foundations alone would cost around £3.5K and that's not including groundworks.

 

Yes I will definitely insulate it, I plan on working from there (sitting on a chair and all)!
I was also thinking on underfloor electric heating, as the wife is hell bent on getting solar panels for the house, and because of the loads I'd feel better with wires than pipes.

Also what's the deal with getting planning permission for a building that is closer than 2m from the boundary and taller than 4m?

Is it doable, or should I just plan to leave 2m from the boundary?

Many thanks for all the replies, this is very helpful and motivating!

[PeterW]

I doubt you’ll get planning for this in a residential area as it is borderline industrial unit size - you may need to start digging down to get the roofline down to begin with. 
 

Kroftman do a decent range of buildings that may be of interest but you’ll need to do some work to get them in under budget. Their 7x8 would set you back around £24k delivered, and then it’s a weekend job to build it for a team of 4. Probably talking around 10 cube of concrete for foundations, same for a 150mm slab and then add mesh and thickening for your lifts etc so your £3k isn’t far off. Dig out is half a day for a decent driver and you’ve got space to lose the soil on an acre. By the time you’ve added a mezzanine and walls for that plus electrics etc, you will be at your £35k. Any spare money, I would be putting solar on the roof and using it as a big array. 

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, AlexGe said:

Thank you al, this is really encouraging and well motivating!
Out of curiosity, what would the difference be if I was to build it using breeze blocks, cost wise as time-wise I know it takes longer.

Yes the foundations would need to be able to take a considerable amount of weight, as a car with ramp is easy more than two tonnes, and a car stacker with cars is more than that.
 

Was that with cladding and roof included or just the frame?

 

 

I would consider concrete pads if there is a way to secure them together, as there will be some serious loads from multiple cars stacked or ramped up.
I suspect concrete foundations alone would cost around £3.5K and that's not including groundworks.

 

Yes I will definitely insulate it, I plan on working from there (sitting on a chair and all)!
I was also thinking on underfloor electric heating, as the wife is hell bent on getting solar panels for the house, and because of the loads I'd feel better with wires than pipes.

Also what's the deal with getting planning permission for a building that is closer than 2m from the boundary and taller than 4m?

Is it doable, or should I just plan to leave 2m from the boundary?

Many thanks for all the replies, this is very helpful and motivating!

 

2 x 1m3 concrete pads/blocks will be plenty for a 2 post lift, which from a load perspective is the worst you can buy. At least my local ramp guy tells me. He is a stickler and wont install unless he is happy.

 

When i did mine, i did it on a slab, thickened at the edges, reinforced. And frame bolted to it. But, it was expensive. (5.5 x 11)  Needed a concrete pump to as couldnt get the trucks to it.

 

It was also laid on 100mm EPS insulation. Along with the sides and walls being insulated, even without heating its a very stable envoronment. Which is great for keeping cars in.

 

Electric undefloor will prob need a 2nd mortgage to pay for it. I still say, put the pipes in. Pipe costs virtually nothing. Its there if you want to use it later.

 

As for planning.............................

 

You might get 4m if its not going to affect anyone. But who knows. It laregly unknowable until you apply.

 

As PeterW says, this is industrial unit territory. Its a problem that i have so far been unable to find a solution too after 5 years. At the risk of boring everyone, and you, i want/need a circa 2000sqft building. I cant do it where i am, so am looking to move so i can. But as you cannot "know" you can get planning, or even "know" you have full PD rights prior to purchasing, effectively that means my only option is to buy a property where that exists already. These are few and far between and only in the much cheaper parts of the country. Q class planning on barns saw to that.

 

Much as id love to do a new build, a new build with a 2000sqft barn is never going to fly from a planning perspective, so an old farm or similar is the only way. Even thats not clear cut from a planning perspective, as the buildings are usually classed as "agricultural" so filling with cars and associated stuff isnt strictly legit, but, without prying eys, who would know. Depends on location.

 

Plus, im budget limited to circa £500k, for both house and barn so i really am looking at wales, the far north of england or scotland.

 

The search for a solution continues.....................................

 

Meanwhile, as you are already there, id be finding a planning consultant and see if he rates your chances of planning sucess. If high, get him to do it. What have you got to lose.?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Roger440

[markc]

2 post ramps do not need big bases under them (1sq metre at 150mm thick is more than enough)  the ones with longitudinal legs will even free stand but that’s not ideal.

mine sits on the 100mm thick slab with a couple of bolts to stop it moving if (when) I run into it.

[Roger440]

6 minutes ago, markc said:

2 post ramps do not need big bases under them (1sq metre at 150mm thick is more than enough)  the ones with longitudinal legs will even free stand but that’s not ideal.

mine sits on the 100mm thick slab with a couple of bolts to stop it moving if (when) I run into it.

 

It might be OK, but the guidance is, i believe 150mm thick minimum on a slab floor. Deeper if its only a pad.

 

In the workshop i rent the floor was only 100mm thick, so i had to make an H frame to bolt the 2 poster too. Otherwise he wouldnt install it. As its also used for business currently, it needs to be insured, so i had little option.

[PeterW]

19 minutes ago, markc said:

2 post ramps do not need big bases under them (1sq metre at 150mm thick is more than enough)  the ones with longitudinal legs will even free stand but that’s not ideal.

A 2 post in a 3-4m span with the point loads near the edges will be fine on 150mm or less, move to putting it in the middle of what becomes a 7x6 slab and the concrete starts to react differently so you really do need to consider point loads as @Roger440 is eluding to. For any large span over 6x6m with unknown or variable point loads it’s fairly common to up the slab to 150mm with mesh or even 200mm as it means you can put anything anywhere. 
 

38 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

It was also laid on 100mm EPS insulation. Along with the sides and walls being insulated, even without heating its a very stable envoronment.

I’ve put the spare 150mm PIR under the slab in ours and ended up with pretty much 200mm of concrete in the centre and 350mm around the edges but it does hold its temperature well ..! 

[AlexGe]

Thanks everyone for your responses and advice, it has been very helpful so far!

The architect mate of mine came back with a few suggestions. He's based abroad though, so he doesn't have much insight to offer on getting a permit.

I think it is wise to keep at 2m from the boundary to reduce my chances of being rejected, and argue only on the height of the building as required. We're also contemplating moving into my car park, so reducing driveway footprint and increasing garage footprint (at 12m long, 7.5m wide).
 

Those are his drafts/sketches for now. He suggests I can use bricks/breezeblocks to take the loads for a smaller structure, but for such a large opening I would definitely  need steel beams to support the roof, as timber would be problematic.

He also said what others have said here already, a 150mm to 200mm slab with steel mesh is probably going to be more than enough.
The amount of windows he's added really appeals to me, but I suspect it would cost a fortune, so I doubt the finished thing would ever look like this.

 

I'm off to find a planning consultant in Mold, Northrop or surrounding areas who have knowledge of what usually gets approved.

 

 

 

[AlexGe]

Just a quick update; it's proving harder than I thought to find a planning consultant. Local architects don't seem interested, and a company I messaged has asked for £250 + VAT for an initial 1 hour consultation. I'm gonna try and get more quotes, but it's starting to look like this is gonna be a long and tedious process.
If anyone has any recommendations in the area of North Wales or Chester, I'd appreciate it ?

[Jack757]

@AlexGe Hi. I've been following this as just starting to look at similar (without mezzanine) under permitted development. 

How have you got on? Did you find the cheapest option or if block/brick was reasonable?