Help me cost up my new build (300sq m)

[SBMS]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

I know Meridian well and they are very good. Pragmatic and helpful. 

That’s good to hear @PeterW! Our builder knows them well which is good too. 

[SarahG]

@Indy how are you getting on with your quotes? I contacted a friend of a friend who is a builder but he won’t quote us until we have full tender documents ready. 

[Indy]

On 24/03/2022 at 19:26, SarahG said:

@Indy how are you getting on with your quotes? I contacted a friend of a friend who is a builder but he won’t quote us until we have full tender documents ready. 

Hey @SarahG. Apologies for taking so long to reply - I've been away on an early Easter holiday (still there but reading the forums). 

 

I have received a number of quotes both from Timber frame companies and also ICF suppliers (Nudura, Beco Wallform, Durisol and Polysteel). However, I've not had a chance to sit down and do a proper analysis/side by side comparison of any of them for several reasons:

 

1. Some of the docs come in at 46 pages long - very hard to digest when on holiday!

2. The quotes are all written differently - in the sense that TF ones usually take you to water/airtight with the full shell erected. However, the ICF ones are only for the blocks and mention ancillaries like bracing, cost of concrete, pump hire etc - without committing any costs to it. 

3. I've also asked a couple of specialist ICF builders/main contractors  (the route we will most likely en up taking) and have been waiting weeks for them to get back to me. Quite usual these days from what I've been told - so I shall use the receipt of the first one of these as a trigger to get my comparison sheet to TF in place. 

 

On an unrelated note - our planning application hasn't even been registered on the council website (4 weeks and counting), so we are still a long way off from having confirmation that we can build the structure we're getting quotes for!

[SarahG]

On 01/04/2022 at 22:30, Indy said:

Hey @SarahG. Apologies for taking so long to reply - I've been away on an early Easter holiday (still there but reading the forums). 

 

I have received a number of quotes both from Timber frame companies and also ICF suppliers (Nudura, Beco Wallform, Durisol and Polysteel). However, I've not had a chance to sit down and do a proper analysis/side by side comparison of any of them for several reasons:

 

1. Some of the docs come in at 46 pages long - very hard to digest when on holiday!

2. The quotes are all written differently - in the sense that TF ones usually take you to water/airtight with the full shell erected. However, the ICF ones are only for the blocks and mention ancillaries like bracing, cost of concrete, pump hire etc - without committing any costs to it. 

3. I've also asked a couple of specialist ICF builders/main contractors  (the route we will most likely en up taking) and have been waiting weeks for them to get back to me. Quite usual these days from what I've been told - so I shall use the receipt of the first one of these as a trigger to get my comparison sheet to TF in place. 

 

On an unrelated note - our planning application hasn't even been registered on the council website (4 weeks and counting), so we are still a long way off from having confirmation that we can build the structure we're getting quotes for!

Hi Indy, hope you are having a good break. We were told the waiting time at Elmbridge is about 5 weeks, so hopefully you will hear soon. Our plans have been validated, but we need to check a few things with them first before it goes live, but should be any day now I hope!

 

I had a look at timber frame, but my husband is pretty set on brick and block, so I think that will be the route we take. Wow 46 pages, I had no idea there was that much to a quote! I think we are probably going to ask for quotes to first fix and then complete the rest ourselves, not ideal but I think  the cost will be too prohibitive otherwise.

[Indy]

1 hour ago, SarahG said:

Hi Indy, hope you are having a good break. We were told the waiting time at Elmbridge is about 5 weeks, so hopefully you will hear soon. Our plans have been validated, but we need to check a few things with them first before it goes live, but should be any day now I hope!

Our wait time has gone from 4 weeks, to 5 and now between 5 and 6 weeks BEFORE it even gets in front of a validation offer, so we're a step behind you. Very frustrating but not much we can do apart from wait. No point in kicking up a fuss either that the application has to be considered within 8 weeks, as the planners can then basically reject for a flimsy reason and put us in the queue for appeals (which tend to take upwards of 6m anyway).

 

1 hour ago, SarahG said:

I had a look at timber frame, but my husband is pretty set on brick and block, so I think that will be the route we take. Wow 46 pages, I had no idea there was that much to a quote! I think we are probably going to ask for quotes to first fix and then complete the rest ourselves, not ideal but I think  the cost will be too prohibitive otherwise.

 

To be fair, some of the quotes have also included further quotes in the appendix from the likes of Rationel for 3G Alu-Clad timber windows and sliding doors. A number of pages are dedicated to these specs and designs, but its still a huge amount of information to take in and I've now made a start.

 

Also chased up my ICF contractor again and he's promised to give me some info by the end of the week, fingers crossed!

[SarahG]

On 11/04/2022 at 10:38, Indy said:

Our wait time has gone from 4 weeks, to 5 and now between 5 and 6 weeks BEFORE it even gets in front of a validation offer, so we're a step behind you. Very frustrating but not much we can do apart from wait. No point in kicking up a fuss either that the application has to be considered within 8 weeks, as the planners can then basically reject for a flimsy reason and put us in the queue for appeals (which tend to take upwards of 6m anyway).

 

 

To be fair, some of the quotes have also included further quotes in the appendix from the likes of Rationel for 3G Alu-Clad timber windows and sliding doors. A number of pages are dedicated to these specs and designs, but its still a huge amount of information to take in and I've now made a start.

 

Also chased up my ICF contractor again and he's promised to give me some info by the end of the week, fingers crossed!

Ah ok. Ours was submitted at the start of Feb, so about 2 months to get to the validation stage for us. I had assumed we were delayed longer as we were waiting for our ecology surveys, but perhaps not. Like you say there isn’t anything you can do but wait and spend the time researching the next stage.

 

Good luck processing those quotes!

[Amateur bob]

On 09/03/2022 at 10:29, SBMS said:

@IndySo below are the prices per sqm and sqf as per our quote and what we are working to.  I've worked out the total size of the house floors (walls included) which is the gross external, then the gross internal (everything except the external walls, so these includes studwork and eaves voids on 2nd floor) then our final actual usable internal floor space (which excludes studwork and eaves storage on 2nd floor):

 

 

Sqm	Gross External	Gross Internal	Usable internal Area
Total size (sqm)	319	279	262
Total size (sqf)	3433.716	3003.156	2820.168
Total build cost (per sqm)	£1,337.93	£1,529.75	£1,629.01
Total build cost (per sqf)	£124.30	£142.12	£151.34

this is a cheap quote is it recent though? will ukraine invasion have increased these

[SBMS]

On 15/04/2022 at 08:16, Amateur bob said:

this is a cheap quote is it recent though? will ukraine invasion have increased these

This was priced up by our builder in March so fairly recent. Things like our engineered joists, block and beam floor, bricks, blocks etc are locked in prices. Excellent question though and I don’t know how much price contingency in supplies our builder has built in. Most of the trades he uses he has used for years so am pretty sure labour costs are secure - but you’re right about things like concrete etc which I know have gone up in April. I think once we are out of the ground I will be less worried. 

[Amateur bob]

9 minutes ago, SBMS said:

This was priced up by our builder in March so fairly recent. Things like our engineered joists, block and beam floor, bricks, blocks etc are locked in prices. Excellent question though and I don’t know how much price contingency in supplies our builder has built in. Most of the trades he uses he has used for years so am pretty sure labour costs are secure - but you’re right about things like concrete etc which I know have gone up in April. I think once we are out of the ground I will be less worried. 

mabye with it being quite big this lowers your cost per m2 a bit things like electric and water supply would cost the same for a house half the size, what part of the uk are you in roughly?

[SBMS]

4 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

mabye with it being quite big this lowers your cost per m2 a bit things like electric and water supply would cost the same for a house half the size, what part of the uk are you in roughly?

This price doesn’t include water and electric connections (electric £1200 and water is £500). North west (Lancashire) so we do benefit from northern prices!

[SBMS]

5 minutes ago, SBMS said:

This price doesn’t include water and electric connections (electric £1200 and water is £500). North west (Lancashire) so we do benefit from northern prices!

Correction sorry, just checked my spreadsheet , these prices do include services

[Amateur bob]

2 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Correction sorry, just checked my spreadsheet , these prices do include services

whats the reason for prices being cheaper further north? im central scotland and some of these 2500/m2 prices i read on here are concernng

[Indy]

Coming back to this thread after a long time, but I thought it's easier to do it here rather than start a new one as there's lots of useful replies here already.

 

Combing through the quotes I've had back from the TF companies, its virtually impossible to do a like for like comparison as they all operate slightly differently. I did get a paid for quote from Estimators for a masonry build, a full turnkey quote from a Nudura ICF builder and a 'finger in the air estimate' from a local builder who's done some work for our friends and is generally well regarded in the area.

 

A few thoughts after some detailed discussions with a number of companies more recently:

• The feeling is that material costs will stabilise but not necessarily drop, just the monthly increases will come to a bit of a halt.
• Labour prices may drop due to the pending recession and cost of living crisis. A lot of people simply can't afford to build anymore due to the skyrocketing costs, which means that companies may be forced to cut labour rates to stay afloat (I can certainly dream!)
• The architect's recommendation is to build in standard masonry, and he's confident that we can achieve the thermal efficiency and airtightness of modern methods of construction. Obviously harder and needs constant monitoring but certainly not impossible.
• Local builder that has done work for friends and is also doing some work for us currently gave us an estimate that comes in around the £2k/sq m mark (masonry build). This would be full turnkey service including demolition, foundation and all the associated works to finish the property.
• One thing that we can easily drop from the build is the outbuilding as the costs for that range from about £38k to £96k(!). A cheaper timber shed may have to suffice for now and we can add a more permanent structure in the future.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

5 hours ago, Indy said:

A few thoughts after some detailed discussions with a number of companies more recently:

• The feeling is that material costs will stabilise but not necessarily drop, just the monthly increases will come to a bit of a halt.
• Labour prices may drop due to the pending recession and cost of living crisis. A lot of people simply can't afford to build anymore due to the skyrocketing costs, which means that companies may be forced to cut labour rates to stay afloat (I can certainly dream!)
• The architect's recommendation is to build in standard masonry, and he's confident that we can achieve the thermal efficiency and airtightness of modern methods of construction. Obviously harder and needs constant monitoring but certainly not impossible.
• Local builder that has done work for friends and is also doing some work for us currently gave us an estimate that comes in around the £2k/sq m mark (masonry build). This would be full turnkey service including demolition, foundation and all the associated works to finish the property.
• One thing that we can easily drop from the build is the outbuilding as the costs for that range from about £38k to £96k(!). A cheaper timber shed may have to suffice for now and we can add a more permanent structure in the future.

Interesting observations.

[PeterW]

10 hours ago, Indy said:

Labour prices may drop due to the pending recession and cost of living crisis. A lot of people simply can't afford to build anymore due to the skyrocketing costs, which means that companies may be forced to cut labour rates to stay afloat (I can certainly dream!)

So the market is tight for labour as we are still about 30% short on contingent and migrant labour and it won’t get better soon. Net unemployment to available jobs is less than 1 now (ie more open jobs than unemployed) and cost of living will hold day rates up as domestic house building  is a real niche market. 
 

10 hours ago, Indy said:

The feeling is that material costs will stabilise but not necessarily drop, just the monthly increases will come to a bit of a halt.

Timber market prices have dropped 2 months in a row - and getting cheaper. Bricks and blocks have gone up, mainly down to gas prices. 
 

10 hours ago, Indy said:

One thing that we can easily drop from the build is the outbuilding as the costs for that range from about £38k to £96k(!).

What have you got plans to build ..??! Can build a house for £96k .. have you looked at the cost per square metre of outbuilding as it should be substantially cheaper than the main build unless it is to the same standard. 

[Indy]

22 hours ago, PeterW said:

Timber market prices have dropped 2 months in a row - and getting cheaper. Bricks and blocks have gone up, mainly down to gas prices. 

 

The one thing I've figured out in all this process is that no matter which build system I use, market forces will collude against me to make that the most expensive at the time!

 

We were originally considering timber frame a year ago and at the time - timber prices were through the roof and going through 10% MoM upward revisions. We then moved to consider ICF but were told by everyone that concrete prices are too high because of rising energy costs to make the stuff blah blah. Finally came round to bricks and blocks as the prices had been stable for about 2 years - guess what, just started to rise again 😣

 

Also perfectly correlated with my putting part of the build fund in crypto at the start of the year thinking - surely I can get a better return than the paltry 1% I was getting in a savings account. Turns out, I can't 😤

  

22 hours ago, PeterW said:

What have you got plans to build ..??! Can build a house for £96k .. have you looked at the cost per square metre of outbuilding as it should be substantially cheaper than the main build unless it is to the same standard. 

 

I'm sure I've posted the plans in one of my earlier posts but its an 8m x 5m building that is split 75/25 between a gym and a storage area/workshop. It is specced in the same materials as the main building now but the quotes have assumed a lot of unnecessary things like UFH, expensive glazing and A2A heat pumps. Easy way for me to drop 10% off the build budget and maybe build a log cabin structure instead - which should come in at less than £20k with a few bells and whistles.

 

[Amateur bob]

how have prices changed since then