Ashp.. new chapter. Help pls.

[Dave Jones]

5 pages of crap, to sum up. heat pump was a total waste of money for this property.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

5 pages of crap, to sum up. heat pump was a total waste of money for this property.

So would a small gas boiler that was only one a few hours at a time.

The crap bit was the energy assessment. Probably because it was done by a technician that only fits gas boilers.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

5 pages of crap, to sum up. heat pump was a total waste of money for this property.

To sum up. The property is rubbish.  Throw 8kW of heat at it from a stove and it barely dents the heating requirement of the house and it is still cold.  Throw a similar amount of heat at it from an ASHP and because that does not heat the house, people are quick to blame the heat pump as being rubbish.

 

What is rubbish is whoever thought a small heating system of any heat source was going to be adequate for such a rubbish house.

 

That is the issue that is faced with a lot of houses.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What is rubbish is whoever thought a small heating system of any heat source was going to be adequate for such a rubbish house.

It reminds me of the time that diesel cars started to become mainstream.

Many people said they were rubbish because they did not have much performance for the engine size.

 

If people measure the wrong thing, the wrong answer will always come out.

[Onoff]

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

So would a small gas boiler that was only one a few hours at a time.

The crap bit was the energy assessment. Probably because it was done by a technician that only fits gas boilers.

 

More like assessed by someone on commission, eager for another helping from a government scheme.

 

There are many trades jumping on all these cash bandwagons that legislation and so on has created. Part P scheme membership, FENSA etc. I bet the bloke in The Times had an MCS registered company install his kit. Where's the comeback? Recourse after it all goes wrong is often painful. The Government haven't a clue to start with and are only interested in ticking a box and spouting that under so and so's leadership X number of heat pumps were installed. Whether they work or not, who cares but they will quote a potential saving in greenhouse gases as it makes a good sound bite.

 

Cowboys are cowboys whether they have a bit of paper and pay into a boy's club or not.

 

Dangle a wad of cash in front of many and they'll likely take it without wanting to put in the work to earn it. 

 

This forum shows what can be done by "amateurs" who above all are interested in and believe in what they are doing. Look at some of the roofing projects undertaken, by and large first class with an attention to detail that would shame many a professional. How many "builders" even understand the concept of air tightness or would go the extra mile if they were short of 400mm of tape. I'm not saying that there aren't decent trades out there but I'd suggest the system will see the cowboys continuing to get paid whether they do a good job or not.

 

Those silly f***ers gluing themselves to the roads might be better if they protested about standards and oversight of all these schemes.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Those silly f***ers gluing themselves to the roads might be better if they protested about standards and oversight of all these schemes.

They ca glue themselves to peoples windows, we can call them window lickers.

[joe90]

On 13/10/2021 at 10:28, zoothorn said:

Would you put up with yours with pumps coming active at 2.31am when you've set your system to shut the fk up at night?. Would you?? NO NO NO........ you wouldn't. Nor would ProDave. Nor would Joe90.

Sorry to have been away but no broadband fir many days. Hang on zoot, mine does come on at 2.31 or whatever but I cannot hear it!!!, if I could (and I know @ProDave does not like noise at night of any sort) so turn it off! Like he does , (you tell us no one runs their heating at night anyway ?‍♂️. ). It’s full of antifreeze and only defrosts (as far as I known) when it’s running, so if it’s off, it can’t defrost.

[zoothorn]

22 hours ago, joe90 said:

Sorry to have been away but no broadband fir many days. Hang on zoot, mine does come on at 2.31 or whatever but I cannot hear it!!!, if I could (and I know @ProDave does not like noise at night of any sort) so turn it off! Like he does , (you tell us no one runs their heating at night anyway ?‍♂️. ). It’s full of antifreeze and only defrosts (as far as I known) when it’s running, so if it’s off, it can’t defrost.

Hi John,

 

Im a bit confused as to what I mean by turn off, & maybe others idea of what it means to do this. No, I recall ProDave not liking any tiny bit of noise overnight ( he would have seeked therapy if his was like mine in frost mode ). But i dont think he turns his off.. i think he just has the setback situation dialed in when he sleeps. Now, is this what some say is " off"? If so, then I do likewise to ProDave.

 

But I am forced to go a whole step beyond this, in order to prevent the frost mode happening: I have a huge red plastic switch ( like the one Kyle turned the internet back on with, in South Park) which cuts all power to the system. Now that... is as off as off can be.

Anyway, it is remotely possible that the new ashp's 2.31am satanic frost mode, might not be heard, by me t'other end of house to the demon box with pump in ( vaillant also agree to put this ghastly thing next to back door. Woohoo!).. but I aintholdin me breath tbh. I bet you it'll at the least make ProDave overnight slight rad noise, if not a bit more & some horrorshow pump motor noise transmitted along the system: what I do know, is it's very likely, I won't be hearing the box's pump directly from it via 2 thin walls/ 2 thin wood doors.

 

So if it introduces any irritating noise through rads at 2.31 am.. heard once, even if slight, after what ive put up with.. & my hackles will be raised enough to have to resort, once again/ back to square 1, to my big red OFF switch at 11 pm. Exactly the same.

 

[Marvin]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Hi John,

 

Im a bit confused as to what I mean by turn off, & maybe others idea of what it means to do this. No, I recall ProDave not liking any tiny bit of noise overnight ( he would have seeked therapy if his was like mine in frost mode ). But i dont think he turns his off.. i think he just has the setback situation dialed in when he sleeps. Now, is this what some say is " off"? If so, then I do likewise to ProDave.

 

 

 

I turn the ASHP control to "no demand" when not in use. 

 

Last night here on the Isle of Wight the low was 12C what was your outside temprature at 2.30am that causes your ASHP to need to defrost??? Our antifreeze will go down to minus 8?  AM I missing something?

[ProDave]

All ASHP's will have some form of timer controls, either built in via it's own controller or an external controller.   In my case I decided the controller that came with it while it could do timer functions it was a complicated thing.  So I chose to control mine from an ordinary central heating controller and that ultimately links to the ASHP's "room thermostat" input.

 

So when my heating programmer says off, the ASHP is off.  It's as simple as that.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

I turn the ASHP control to "no demand" when not in use. 

 

Last night here on the Isle of Wight the low was 12C what was your outside temprature at 2.30am that causes your ASHP to need to defrost??? Our antifreeze will go down to minus 8?  AM I missing something?

 

Mine (LG therma V)  will turn on the circulating pump at about 5 degrees.  It does not run the ASHP, it just runs the water circulating pump for a minute or 2 to draw it bit of heat from the house, or at least move the slug of cold water into the house and replace it with some house temperature water.  The instructions for the ASHP say to use antfreeze, but it appears to be programmed to assume you have not done that so it tries to keep the fluid temperature above 0.  This function is not documented and cannot be turned off.

[zoothorn]

On 30/10/2021 at 09:09, Dave Jones said:

5 pages of crap, to sum up. heat pump was a total waste of money for this property.

Haha.. just seen this. Good one DJ. I like your style. 6 pages actually.

 

The only reason I said put it in was to add value to the property tbh. I knew it wouldn't possibly be capable of heating this house. 
 

But not heating me AND keeping me awake all night? That's double fkn useless.

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I turn the ASHP control to "no demand" when not in use. 

 

Last night here on the Isle of Wight the low was 12C what was your outside temprature at 2.30am that causes your ASHP to need to defrost??? Our antifreeze will go down to minus 8?  AM I missing something?

Ho Marvin, if I had this option & it let me override the frost blx mode...  by god I'd have found it. I've spent many msny hours on calls, to their tech dept to try & find a way to stop it let alone countless engineer visits " this will do it, new pcb boards, 100% promise ".

 

No you're not misin summink. The frost mode trip figure, in the wretched software which cannot be altered, is 3*C outside temp. Same with the replacement ashp they'll put in. Same pcb boards. Germany mfr are tho ( for future customers ) redesigning it. Bc of me!
 

So if its gonna be 5*C according to forecast.. I have to be safer than sorry & turn the bigass red Kyle switch OFF at 11pm. That's most nights of the winter. Now you can possibly see how infuriating this has been... & possibly still might be with the new ashp too.

[Marvin]

17 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Ho Marvin, if I had this option & it let me override the frost blx mode...  by god I'd have found it. I've spent many msny hours on calls, to their tech dept to try & find a way to stop it let alone countless engineer visits " this will do it, new pcb boards, 100% promise ".

 

No you're not misin summink. The frost mode trip figure, in the wretched software which cannot be altered, is 3*C outside temp. Same with the replacement ashp they'll put in. Same pcb boards. Germany mfr are tho ( for future customers ) redesigning it. Bc of me!
 

So if its gonna be 5*C according to forecast.. I have to be safer than sorry & turn the bigass red Kyle switch OFF at 11pm. That's most nights of the winter. Now you can possibly see how infuriating this has been... & possibly still might be with the new ashp too.

Surely @zoothornif you live in the wild west its warmer than 5C over Night??

[zoothorn]

On 30/10/2021 at 09:15, ProDave said:

To sum up. The property is rubbish.  Throw 8kW of heat at it from a stove and it barely dents the heating requirement of the house and it is still cold.  Throw a similar amount of heat at it from an ASHP and because that does not heat the house, people are quick to blame the heat pump as being rubbish.

 

What is rubbish is whoever thought a small heating system of any heat source was going to be adequate for such a rubbish house.

 

That is the issue that is faced with a lot of houses.

 

 

ProDave, the point is being missed here. The only issue in question, is this appaling overnight frost mode's design ( keeping one awake with terrible nouse ). Not the effectiveness of the ashp to heat this old house ( 90% which includes 2 additions as freezingly uninsulated as the stone shell they attatch to) which I knew wouldn't work but I nevertheless agreed/ wanted it. Why? Because if I have a mice infested rotten cylinder, & no rads... the prospect of getting this replaced with -anything- new (plus as a bonus some rads & a great big fanny etc) then I can't possibly say " no thanks ". On the contrary Im gonna be begging them to fit it.

 

Now, if I find it useless -it seems to me- of heating my new extention (well half useless: it works in these two rooms well from 4 pm to 10 pm).... then I have a right to moan. I am - not though - moaning about how it fails to heat 90% of the house, all times, because it's not fair to criticise it ( I knew it wouldn't heat it whatoever, not any of the 5 rooms even slightly, because it cannot, bc there is simply too much cold for it to battle). Even knowing this likelihood beforehand, even with surveyor saying " it'll make cttg really warm you won't need a stove " ( i knew totally wouldn't be )....... Im still gonna get the ashp fitted > which has resulted in it preventing sleep, bc of some design disaster the mfr has concurred exists enough to replace the whole thing foc.

[zoothorn]

 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

Surely @zoothornif you live in the wild west its warmer than 5C over Night??

 

Microclimate! Have you never seen Z For Zachariah? ?

 

(The 1984 Play For Today one set in a Welsh valley).

[Marvin]

34 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Microclimate! Have you never seen Z For Zachariah? ?

 

(The 1984 Play For Today one set in a Welsh valley).

No. Totally uneducated me. Actually @Onoffin 1984 I could only receive the BBC World service on the radio.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Marvin
Re think

[zoothorn]

14 hours ago, Marvin said:

Surely @zoothornif you live in the wild west its warmer than 5C over Night??

Hi Marvin, well yes say half the winter nights might be. But I still can't understand:

 

A) why the outside trip figure isn't minus 3*C, if refrigerant which is designed to be an antifreeze, exists in outside unit.

B) why, if the frost mode moves around rad water, only inside, the 3*C trip figure shouldn't be registered from the -inside- temp sensor.

C) why if the room the hydraulic unit (noisey box) in bedroom cupboard is in, registers no less than 8*C ever therefore the rest of the rooms temps similar, rad water needs moving around rooms ever at all. No other CH system's done this Ive ever known, bc no logic to it.

D) why this trip figure can't be adjusted, even by engineers. 

E) why this trip fig can't be deactivated.

F) why it even exists if it's not shifting any water around outside, in environments susceptible to frost, but instead shifting water around inside, in environments never susceptible to frost (or incredibly unlikely if I find the inside lowest temp around 8*C, probably a full 6 degrees higher than any frost likely to happen).

 

If it shifted water around inside at 2.31am, in order to push it (via basic hydraulic pressure theory) OUTSIDE... to "warm" units in frost- susceptible-areas SOME LOGIC would exist. But it doesn't outside at all. So why, if the pipes connecting the inside to outside units DO NOT by nature carry water, & do not replace the High Pressure gas (or refrigerant or wtf lives in these pipes) with "warm" water (especially in the opposite direction to normal) to carry it to the outside unit..... & back again to the rads too..... logic tells me no water is being circulated along these pipes, no water is going to frost susceptible ares ( outside ). So why why why in this wretched mode, is water ONLY being circulated around the flaming rads inside the house when the temp is 8*C?!?!?

 

If there was some circulation within the outside unit at 2.31am, logic exists. But instead it happens not out there (apparently if its minus 4 outside no circulation happens: fkn nuts if there's a 'frost mode' !!) , but only only only inside where it can never, possibly, have any logic to circulate water if rooms never dip below say 7 to 8 degrees at the coldest. Is rad water by nature 5 degrees lower than surrounding sir temp?! Fk no. Drives me fkn insane. Madenning. And I have the same fkn system to contend with on the new system!!!

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by zoothorn

[Marvin]

I also do not understand. Perhaps our brains are too powerful to think down to this level:

A - ditto.

B - water moved around outside unit has to circulate somewhere mine into hot water tank or buffer tank but not rads.

C - I am not knowledgeable with your type of unit.

D - no change gives no consideration to external pipework vaunribility etc so a brush stroke protect all level.

E - I admit I wouldn't want my clients mucking about with this but that means it must be suitably adjusted.   

F- answer in B above?

However I think my ASHP has a frost heater in the fan unit.

Good luck. M

[zoothorn]

20 hours ago, ProDave said:

All ASHP's will have some form of timer controls, either built in via it's own controller or an external controller.   In my case I decided the controller that came with it while it could do timer functions it was a complicated thing.  So I chose to control mine from an ordinary central heating controller and that ultimately links to the ASHP's "room thermostat" input.

 

So when my heating programmer says off, the ASHP is off.  It's as simple as that.

This sounds for me though like a complicated retrofit. My ashp also goes off when my heating programmer says off. But comes on/ overrides this off setup period, to do this frost thing. Its like shroedinger's cat, the ashp at this juncture is both off & on. Zoot's quantum heat pump.

 

Separate point: ok now ProDave you I assume, like me, dial in an overnight setback situation, correct? If so what are your heating on & off times? Thanks, zh