Ashp.. new chapter. Help pls.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

makes myblood boil

So does using descriptions like suitcases, for heat exchangers, and relating a heating system to holding a camera on a film set.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, learn how the system works and take advice when it is offered, it has to be better than shooting the messenger.

[zoothorn]

34 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

 

And also with respect,  you don't know with certainly that what you just typed is correct *unless* you wade through all the other stuff.

 

How do you know an in-house sensor isn't reading the temperature wrong, and telling the pump to run? You don't.

How do you know what flow restriction there is in the rest of the CH circuit that could be making the pump unnecessarly noisy if it *does* run at night time? Modern pumps automatically vary their speed- they don't have "gears", they're CVT automatics.

Can you be sure a zone valve isn't wired wrong and is forcing the unit on even when programmed off?

 

None of these things are inside the ASHP or in the manufacturer's pervue.

Hi dpm. Points in general, taken. But look I do know an indoor sensor isn't even part of the chain to turn it on at 3 am. Only the outdoor sensor does, at the 3*C tipping point. Indoor sensor doesn't sense anything below 8*C.

 

The word " gears" is my best choice to explain the two different pump running speeds, afaict it has only two. I hear, only two.

 

Flow restriction causing it to go into this " upper speed mode " ? That implies a fault. It is nit running faulty. It is running exactly how it should, if a flow restriction/ hampering ( fault) was there... the engineer, in one of the ten visits, if not have found it, would at the least have mentioned this as a possibility.

 

I have to conclude any valve xyz ( this is far to far for me to consider, engineering wise ) is not faluty, or one of the ten engineer visits would have found it, if not then at least tested for any such valve fault.

 

If modern pumps vary their speed, I would suggest that " gears " is the most perfect word to use as an analogy too. High gear, low gear. Two.only. Much more concise & clearer saying this, thsn it "varying its speed from one speed to another".

 

There is nothing, whatsoever, to suggest there is any fault. It is running precisely as it should, Im totally sure of this. Its just a design abomination. Which effectively they, themselves, have agreed dpm.

 

But I still do not know if this new pump will be noisy enough to wake/ disrupt sleep: I know it will engage at 2.31 am. I know this as a fact. As infuriating that notion is.
 

Would you put up with yours with pumps coming active at 2.31am when you've set your system to shut the fk up at night?. Would you?? NO NO NO........ you wouldn't. Nor would ProDave. Nor would Joe90. But zoot.... has to/ has no choice. SO. It is a mitigation exercise now only. Shoving the fkn heat xchsnger thing next to back door, a mini battle i fought on monday on an hour call, yet another, is one possible way. But its a guess.
 

I cannot stop this becoming active, repeatedly/ incessantly, overnight. I have to put up with it. Thst is known. What isn't known is how disruptive this new system will be, will be heard, at 2.31 am, compared to my wretched thing presently.

[gravelld]

So, feel free to yell at me to review a post I missed but...

 

If this was incorrectly specified in the first place, why aren't the installers removing and replacing with a more appropriate solution under the MCS guarantees? I thought MCS would guarantee an accurate heat loss calculation and product choice, and cover the customer if these things weren't done correctly?

 

I partly ask because I'm going down this road myself and I would like to be informed...

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, gravelld said:

So, feel free to yell at me to review a post I missed but...

 

If this was incorrectly specified in the first place, why aren't the installers removing and replacing with a more appropriate solution under the MCS guarantees? I thought MCS would guarantee an accurate heat loss calculation and product choice, and cover the customer if these things weren't done correctly?

 

I partly ask because I'm going down this road myself and I would like to be informed...

There is nothing suggesting heat loss issues, nothing suggesting it is in any way, shape, or form, whatsoever, incorrectly installed. It is installed correctly. Calculations made to choose the size of it. And, it is running correctly ( just with a design aspect abomination causing huge stress & frustration this thread is solely about ).

 

If they couldn't physically calculate that my floor is absurdly cold, probably bc its close to a big stream meaning huge extra cold ingress 365 days a year, because they cant drill thru my carpet to probe unlike walls to find out... they will likely have  made an educated guess as to the floor insulative aspects. THIS is where the heat loss aspect might be ( the house's fault! Not the installers!!) And anyway this isn't even for consideration! I knew it wouldn't cope with my house cold. i knew this. I am not complaining about  this ( i might grumble only that in my modern rooms, heating going on 7 am.. the rads at 9am are often cold for some absurd reason, the room rarely warm: but this is an entirely separate point, & cannot cannot possibly be the installers fault either! Its the bloody system!!).

 

The only thing this thread is about.... is one pump. What it possibly does ( precisely ). Why it might do it. Why it might do it when it is doing it. Possible design thinking. If my frustration is understood perhpas? Am I insane ? am I missing anything? General help on a pump within a hydraulic unit, & a "heat exchanger". Nothing else is wrong but this. Nothing else causes sleep deprivation. 
 

These are the questions I was attempting to ask... not heat loss!!

[gravelld]

Ok, maybe I was incorrect in assuming your issues with the system were derived from under specifying the active heat input from this system. I'll bow out.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, gravelld said:

Ok, maybe I was incorrect in assuming your issues with the system were derived from under specifying the active heat input from this system. I'll bow out.

Sorry if I banged on. But the install has been said to be incorrect on this thread by someone else hence this issue, & just that I find it incomprehensible to link the two ( or see anything wrong with the install ).

 

But appreciate your input to read the thread & reply nonetheless gravelld.

[dpmiller]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

Flow restriction causing it to go into this " upper speed mode " ? That implies a fault. It is nit running faulty. It is running exactly how it should, if a flow restriction/ hampering ( fault) was there... the engineer, in one of the ten visits, if not have found it, would at the least have mentioned this as a possibility.

 

Do you know what an automatic bypass valve is?

 

Was the engineer ever present at 3am when the temperature was low enough to bring on this issue?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

 

Do you know what an automatic bypass valve is?

 

Was the engineer ever present at 3am when the temperature was low enough to bring on this issue?

HI dpm, no I don't know what such a valve is. No the engineer hasn't been here at 3 am: one of the most frustrating things being they'd never likely be present when this noise was on ( 11pm to 7 am, any time between as a rule ).

 

What I did do was show them ipad clips, i took at 4.17am.. which they crowed about being " great info, just what we need to pass on to germany". Then never heard from them since. So if this was both uk head engineers, they passed on to german mfr, then yiur suggestion would likely have been ruled out.
 

But your implication is that it is a fault, doing something it's not meant to. It is established, that it is doing exactly what its meant to/ designed to do. No fault. Either the incorrect pump has been included in the design ( one of their chaps, only y'day, eluded to this very thing as a distinct possibility, which their design comittee is addressing ' for the future design') or the frost mode software design is flawed (IMHO it is both of these).. but that doesn't mean there's a 'fault' with my particular, individual system.

 

thanks. Zh

[zoothorn]

Are there any advantages to a 'monoblock' per se? Or disadvantages? Ie to my split affair. Did someone mention I can't do hugher flow rates with it, I think this is what I tweaked up to get more heat from my rads.. but Im lost tbh.
 

Anyway chaps thanks for your thoughts, help. I'll update once this replacement is in. It's great in principle that Ive fought a big Co & won.. & if this blasted thing's able to go well away from bedrooms ( yet established by the installers -same young Co- if possible logistically) then I may be ok even with it coming active overnight. If not.. then back to my insulate birdbox idea onto outside sensor ( when 3*C temps imminent ); they've agreed to this  sensor to be placed lower, so I can attack it as a back-up last resort plan.

 

All bases covered I think. Apart from understanding wtf it actually does at 3 am making this noise.. which remains & will always be a mystery.

 

zoot

[zoothorn]

Update.

 

Vaillant agreed to cover all costs to replace with a monoblock, finally got certainty: no costs to me for the swap. I would have a bloomin hole though in my 1st floor bedroom exterior wall left.. would you think I should just accept/ fix, or part of the installers swap job?

 

Anyway my orig installers are to come & survey the job, then swap ( when.. well I need alot more patience, but hey-ho can cope now).

If I can keep the old 'split' 2 units (a big IF but would cost Vaillant alot to remove surely, & store) would you think they'd be worth something? I wonder whether I could 'recoup some of the stress' should I be allowed to keep them, if I sold them. Idea just occured to me. 

 

zoot

[PeterW]

23 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

would you think I should just accept/ fix, or part of the installers swap job?

Legal requirement to make good by a supplier in the event rework is required. It is them rectifying their own problem. 

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

If I can keep the old 'split' 2 units (a big IF but would cost Vaillant alot to remove surely, & store) would you think they'd be worth something?

Don't be greedy, this was a free installation, with the money coming out the public purse.

If you want compensation, see a solicitor.

[zoothorn]

40 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Don't be greedy, this was a free installation, with the money coming out the public purse.

If you want compensation, see a solicitor.

But I only mean if it costs vaillant to remove it, it might suit both to leave it. Furthermore if it's govt putting it in, & public & govt fkn up my whole income with brexit ST....... then in my view it's a reasonable idea.

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Vaillant agreed to cover all costs to replace with a monoblock, finally got certainty: no costs to me for the swap.

That's good news. Do you happen to know if the new monobloc will be the latest model with R290 refrigerant gas.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Legal requirement to make good by a supplier in the event rework is required. It is them rectifying their own problem. 

Ah ok. But I think we're back at loggerheads over who the supplier is, I say it's vaillant whose hardware they've agreed isn't up to par & paying to replace ( not govt or public ST ), but I think here you're suggesting it's the installers.

 

 

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, Gone West said:

That's good news. Do you happen to know if the new monobloc will be the latest model with R290 refrigerant gas.

Hi GW.. no I can ask though; would this be relevant to how it might perform in frost mode overnight? ( or do you have plans to siphon it off & huff it maybe-?). Is it huffable..?

Edited October 28, 2021 by zoothorn

[Gone West]

Just now, zoothorn said:

Hi GW.. no I can ask though; would this be relevant to how it might perform in frost mode overnight? ( or do you have plans to siphon it off & huff it maybe-?). Is it huffable..?

AIUI R290 is a refined type of propane and allows the water temperature to go up to 75C so ordinary radiators can be used. I wouldn't huff it myself .

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, Gone West said:

AIUI R290 is a refined type of propane and allows the water temperature to go up to 75C so ordinary radiators can be used. I wouldn't huff it myself .

The significance you mean being I could in theory then, if it is R290, get my rads up a bit hotter-? I think my rads are ordinary 'doubles'.. just bigass ones, well 2/8 are, the rest are normally sized couldn't be bigass due to logistics fitting them in.

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, zoothorn said:

The significance you mean being I could in theory then, if it is R290, get my rads up a bit hotter-? I think my rads are ordinary 'doubles'.. just bigass ones, well 2/8 are, the rest are normally sized couldn't be bigass due to logistics fitting them in.

Yes I've seen R290 ASHPs advertised as straight swaps for oil and gas boilers but R290 monoblocs aren't common yet.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Gone West said:

Yes I've seen R290 ASHPs advertised as straight swaps for oil and gas boilers but R290 monoblocs aren't common yet.

Vaillant say I should be able to up the flow temp on this replacement ashp, as i did before, but the rad temps still seemed very hampered by the outside sensor ( seems just a crap thing ) which influences the temp too.. a second infuriating aspect of it besides it tripping the wretched night frost cycle at an infuriatingly & incomprehensiblly high 3*C point (the same damn circuit with same 3*C figure.. Im still lumped to having on the replacement ashp).

Hope new sensor might not curtail the rads temps as much tho as I wouldn't want to up the flow temp further to negate it's influence: but even so its can only be the likelihood of cold rooms again until mid afternoon with a similar ashp.

Edited October 29, 2021 by zoothorn

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Hope new sensor might not curtail the rads temps as much tho as I wouldn't want to up the flow temp further to negate it's influence: but even so its can only be the likelihood of cold rooms again until mid afternoon with a similar ashp.

We moved into our latest house which is an old stone walled bungalow, with later additions, in mid May. The bungalow had been empty for a year without much heat and we found it took a couple of months for the fabric of the building to warm up so the air felt comfortable. We have had the oil fired central heating all the time since we moved in. It is controlled by a room thermostat and TRVs and the building is now a very comfortable 23C all the time. It does take a very long time for an old building to stabilise the temperature but once that's done the boiler doesn't come on that much.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Gone West said:

boiler doesn't come on that much.

Nor will zoot's, he keeps turning it off every day.

Edited October 29, 2021 by SteamyTea

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Nor will zoot's, he keeps turning it off every day.

No. In normal operating I don't: only when it gets very cold (then I'm forced to). Generally I put my night setback -afaik is normal use- so heating off at 9.30 pm, on at 6.30 am. This means the system is on 24 hrs/ day.

 

But doing so, the rads don't warm up until midday & house is cold until mid afternoon. Even in a newly built insulated room. Useless.

 

I do not intend to put the setback/ heating to start midnight in order to get the rads warm by 7am, to get some warmth in this bedroom by 8 am. Hearing radiators work just enough to be irritating in a quiet bedroom is reason enough not to have a rad on in a bedroom overnight, besides it being ridiculous anyway when you want a cooler temp... besides being a huge waste of 7hrs electricity running the whole system just to get a modicum of heat into one bedroom 1st thing. 

It is a hopeless system. Whether the new one will be any better though time will tell. But Im not holding my breath. A £5 fan heater is currently better at getting me warm.

 

 

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, Gone West said:

We moved into our latest house which is an old stone walled bungalow, with later additions, in mid May. The bungalow had been empty for a year without much heat and we found it took a couple of months for the fabric of the building to warm up so the air felt comfortable. We have had the oil fired central heating all the time since we moved in. It is controlled by a room thermostat and TRVs and the building is now a very comfortable 23C all the time. It does take a very long time for an old building to stabilise the temperature but once that's done the boiler doesn't come on that much.

Hi GW. I understand the sentiment here.. but look I have an 8kw log burner. I have when I had plenty of free wood, run the stove during the whole evening day after day before = alot of heat into this main old shell, regularly for 2 months. It never once though felt like the fabric got any different.. it remained ludicrously cold. I just don't believe a slate & concrete floor upon wet clay cottage - can- retain heat, sufficient enough heat, in order to say the fabric of the house will change after two months etc. You need some form of insulation, in my estimation minimum 2 cm under floor & in walls, in order for retention to happen. Or maybe a sandstone instead with more air within the stone structure or something. Not out in w. Wales in my slate cottage you aint doing ya poncy retention see.
 

So I've ruled out this idea of running the ashp for hugely long contiunal periods (further ruled out as it is impossible for me to afford) so the idea isn't feasable. So all I do to give  the ashp due credit, is discard the results in the old house. Just how does it perform in my newly built well insulated room ( its just not fair to assail how it performs in an old stone miners cttg, suffice to say its not worth putting the rads on: you just --cannot-- expect a v.moderately hot rad, in the old house, to heat anywhere but a foot or so around it, ever).
 

So can the ashp heat my new room? Hmm yes, just, with a huge struggle it can. Can it heat it when I want? No, absolutely not, unless I keep the bloody rad on every hour of every day from now until march.. then I could: but this idea is so preposterous; especially in this time of curtailing wastefulness/ helping the polar bears etc, & especially the cost of such a wasteful exercise.

 

 Thanks zoot.

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I have when I had plenty of free wood, run the stove during the whole evening day after day before = alot of heat into this main old shell, regularly for 2 months. It never once though felt like the fabric got any different.. it remained ludicrously cold.

I accept what you have done but a wood burning stove on for a few hours in the evenings isn't the same as having heat pumped into every room in the house 24 hours a day. I suspect it's what steamytea told me when I mentioned about my house in another thread which was that drying out the fabric of the building takes more than twice the energy of heating the fabric of the building. I do hope you manage to sort something out so you are comfortable this winter.