Ashp.. new chapter. Help pls.

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps, 

 

had an awful ashp experience so far, but now Vaillant have agreed the following (as ive had no comms after an engineer visit in april.. & i hollered at them last week, just getting this reply): "However, for this reason (they couldnt do anything until next year they said), Vaillant (we) will look to replace your appliance for an aroTHERM/3 with a heat exchanger module. 
 

I have no idea of what is proposed you see, need help.

 

So a brief recap. Have an arotherm split with inpossible 1 year problem meaning I have to turn whole thing off 11pm. Problem is noise from the indoor module ( suitcase size, hp pipes go into it, copper pipes come out of it) in my sparebed cupboard, cylinder in this room too. Not slight irritating noise, prominent heard in every room whining pitched motor noise.

 

During heat periods this module is fine, its runs in a " low pump motor gear" lets say. When outside temp drops... the problem starts. At 3*C some frost protection function kicks in. This means this box unit starts an overnight ( coinciding with outside temp drop ) far noisier incessant 6 min on/ 3 min off pump motor noise cycle, not in " low gear " but "highest gear" motor mode. Bbecause it is loud & incessantly on& off it is highly irritating. Bc It is these things plus it starts when you go to bed, it is infuriating. Bc it goes on hundreds of times until the heating kicks in 7 am keeping you from sleeping 3 rooms away, it is so infuriating... I have to turn it all off. Freezing cold until midday then.

 

Tried my best for a year, pressured them, had visit after visit (10x), promise after promise, boards fitted, german xyz ideas considered. Nothing changes. Them adamant its a fault/ to be fixed. So I wait months, then finally snap & holler at them, & squeeze this proposal/ new avenue from them today. But Im into a whole heap of new doo-doo understanding what is being proposed. Let alone if there's any indoor unit at all, if its going to do the same thing etc. Urgh. An utter nightmare.

 

But do I have a solution with this proposal? Is it a different thing? I have no clue whatsoever.

 

Thanks for reading, zoot

[TonyT]

Best get them to survey the property, do the heat loss calculations etc and then propose something

[zoothorn]

This is the " heat exchanger " mentioned in their proposal. Reading it, although ive no idea what it actually is, there is a fair ammount of words connecting directly to the aspect of frost protection, i think, tantalisingly, which seems more than coincidental considering it is exactly pinpoint THIS frost protect aspect, which is the innitiation, of the problem indoor unit, doing what it does so infuriatingly 1 am to 7 am.

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/for-installers/products/heat-exchanger-module-42880.html

 

I think this is relevant information for the thread. But I haven't a clue. Thx zh

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Best get them to survey the property, do the heat loss calculations etc and then propose something

Hi Tony, no this is an entirely separate angle. The choice of system, size, is not needed: it will just mean i cannot cope, overloaded by extra information Im not asking about.

 

It must be assumed that calculations have been done, to put in the system i have now. The noise aspect has no bearing or relation on heat loss calculations.
 

With respect, if you could help only with their "...." proposal (understanding it compared to what I have now) Id really appreciate it: this is simply all I am asking for this thread. Ie. Noise issue; they propose a replacement something or other; pls can you help me understand it.
 

Thanks. Zh

 

 

[joth]

I think you have to go back to them (Valiant) to have them explain their proposal and provide their rationale as to how it will resolve the issue. Without access to a root-cause diagnosis anyone here will just be speculating.

Regarding the proposal itself, my read is that the key thing is they're replacing the system with a brand new aroTHERM/3, and the fact it has a heat exchanger is just a clarifying detail of the new system, not necessarily the most critical part of the solution to the noise problem. But that's just my read. You need them to explain their workings.

(I acknowledge this is easy for me to say, and sympathise that actually getting them to explain it is another matter)

Edited October 8, 2021 by joth

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, joth said:

I think you have to go back to them (Valiant) to have them explain their proposal and provide their rationale as to how it will resolve the issue. Without access to a root-cause diagnosis anyone here will just be speculating.

Regarding the proposal itself, my read is that the key thing is they're replacing the system with a brand new aroTHERM/3, and the fact it has a heat exchanger is just a clarifying detail of the new system, not necessarily the most critical part of the solution to the noise problem. But that's just my read. You need them to explain their workings.

(I acknowledge this is easy for me to say, and sympathise that actually getting them to explain it is another matter)

Hi joth. That's very helpful & reasonable too. Tbh as they hsve been hopeless understanding their own system, it seems quite clear to me if they've sent countless engineer visits trying to fix something they said they could & would  fix.. but haven't.. & furthermore it took someone on here to establish there actually wasn't anything to fix at all- then my confidence of an explanation wasn't with them, but on here! Far more sense on here.

 

Anyway I did what you suggested & called them, & got some info. Amazingly. Their proposal is a " monoblock" instead of the split thing. This means the problem indoor unit... is GONE! Well rather its incorporated in the big fanny unit outside. Woohoo! But... the wretched problem frost protection cycle is in this too.

 

So, I have no idea, really if this will solve my problem, or just shift it away a bit, or if I'll still hear the ruddy same cycle thing just as much. Maybe more. And will the big fanny unit be noisier? Mine has a dampener on it which helps this unit's drone heard through wall much better ( this was a trifling issue jn comparison with the other problem noise/ a token gesture but useful).

 

Thanks, Zoot

[ProDave]

Invite an engineer to spend a night, make them a bed in the spare room, and then they might finally hear for themselves what the issue is.

 

I don't see any other option if this odd noise does not occur at any other time of day.

[zoothorn]

One thing I could ask on here then, if my main question about the differences of the split & monoblock units has partly been answered/ & perhaps a bit too much to ask on here for help explaining... is this, which is at the root of my problem, & for the life of me I cannot understand:

 

The frost protection mode itself. Of course I can understand the principle of hardware, in a frosty environment, needing protection. But I was told today ( i finally got clarity on what this wretched thing is actually doing, in this incessant mode, at 3 am ) that the hydraulic unit ( my problem indoor box ) doesn't pump refridgerant along anything, not inside of course, but also not outside via the HP pipes to the big fanny unit, which is the - only only only hardware- situated in an environment subject to frost, & so my assumption that this is what was being protected. No. The damn pump, pushes - water - around the - radiators in the damn house - at 3 am. When the outside temp guage hits 3*C. When, the inside of the coldest room, in this coldest of houses, has never been below 9*C. In fact I can only recall seeing the lowest figure of 11*C inside the thermostat room.

 

So, I asked tearing my flippin hair out to the very helpful chap ( vaillant phone comms.. great) poor guy, why why why is there any need for any water at all, at 9*C, to be in need of having any frost protection?!?!!

 

It was a rhetorical question I said, sensing he couldn't answer it. But he implicitly understood my rationale for asking it.

 

It seems this damn cycle, has no logic or sense to even be there at all. Would you concur?? Or am i missing something. Tbh I really am adamant Im not, because the chap said the engineer dept/ the whole lot, including input from their design dept in germany ( my insistance has paid off: this is all for me primarily).. had considered, he said, adding a switch to the circuit, for the customer, to turn the f&&&&ng thing ' Off '. All due to me, my problem my idea of the switch, following my reasoning that the frost protection... is fundamentally crackers & of no use other than to make my life full of grief. They agree! I think.

 

thx zoot

[ProDave]

That does seem ridiculous.

 

Mine is a monoblock unit so there is water flowing between the inside and outside, so it is indeed logical for it to turn on the circulating pump to prevent freezing.  Even that it is just the circulating pump running at normal circulation speed, so just a very low level hum, no worse than at any other time of operation.

 

Even with mine, where you have antifreeze / inhibitor mixed it, there would be no need for the frost protection to kick in until say -5C?

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Invite an engineer to spend a night, make them a bed in the spare room, and then they might finally hear for themselves what the issue is.

 

I don't see any other option if this odd noise does not occur at any other time of day.

Great idea! I actually put this to them in april when both chief engineers here, all day, asking me last thing ( both almost given up ) coyly for my video clip of it ( the controller display + noise just captured enough at 4.am ) then cooing how useful it was for them to give to germany as ' evidence '.

 

Zoot! The engineer maestro! I did harp on about being a camera ' engineer ' in my past ie a film camera assistant hoping my theories had credence, not just a muppet blindly guessing at ideas.. like I am at building stuff! 
 

 

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

That does seem ridiculous.

 

Mine is a monoblock unit so there is water flowing between the inside and outside, so it is indeed logical for it to turn on the circulating pump to prevent freezing.  Even that it is just the circulating pump running at normal circulation speed, so just a very low level hum, no worse than at any other time of operation.

 

Even with mine, where you have antifreeze / inhibitor mixed it, there would be no need for the frost protection to kick in until say -5C?

Thank goodness, you concur. Honestly that is vindication right there after a year battling away.

 

Well that seems all perfectly reasonable, your system, the temp figure seems very low... but hey ho i'd not sniff at that.

 

Trouble is, the same frost protection part of the circuit will be in this replacement monoblock, so Im still looking at a similar infuriating cycle... but.... the pump located outside. Its a question of whether this is hugely better, or fractionally so. Id -think- & hope hope hope.. it's the former.

 

Thanks, zh

[joe90]

At least they have come up with a proposal, well done zoot. I think most of us have monoblock units, all the gubbins outside and protected by antifreeze just like your car. The internal gubbins is just a heat exchanger with no electric bits (from what I can gather). I think this will be much better fir you. No one else here has had the problems you have had (but I know of no one that has a split unit).

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, joe90 said:

At least they have come up with a proposal, well done zoot. I think most of us have monoblock units, all the gubbins outside and protected by antifreeze just like your car. The internal gubbins is just a heat exchanger with no electric bits (from what I can gather). I think this will be much better fir you. No one else here has had the problems you have had (but I know of no one that has a split unit).

Hi John. Tbh the word split had absolutely no meaning to me. I had to figure today that maybe the word monoblock, the first time Ive ever heard this word ( apart from hifi amps, very groovy indeed ), was linked to the word split. Then I guessed that the hydraulic unit, my nemesis, was inherrantly the split part. If I had known this, known of monoblocks, Id have said " there... that's the solution" in a jiffy if it simply meant the pump, the core of my nemesis, was simply located away from bedrooms.

 

Which leads to the bloody question... why why why didnt any of the engineers pick up on this seemingly obvious solution, or if not a solution ( time will tell ) then the most blindingly obvious 1st port of call to suggest is needed, for me, to try to solve this problem.

 

Beggars belief.
 

Anyway, right so this heat exchanger: now this so I recall I was told, does reside inside/ with an expansion vessel he said, these would go where my hydraulic sh*tferbrains unit was. Are you sure it isnt likely to make any noise if it might be similsr to other's on here?

[zoothorn]

Oh FFs. This heat exchanger has inside it a "Modulating circuit pump". Jesus h christ. 

 

Its under 'Features & Benefits' ( benefit?? ) in the same Heat Exchanger link again..

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/for-installers/products/heat-exchanger-module-42880.html#specification

 

Can anyone shed any light on what the hell this thing is? Do you maybe have one?

 

thanks zoot.

[joe90]

Just had a look at the spec and it has a pump, the heat exchanger will make no noise at all, the pump a low hum at worst so no, should make no more noise than say your fridge at the worst.

22 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Which leads to the bloody question... why why why didnt any of the engineers pick up on this seemingly obvious solution, or if not a solution ( time will tell ) then the most blindingly obvious 1st port of call to suggest is needed, for me, to try to solve this problem.

Because they were trying to fix something that was sold you (as fit fir purpose, which it is not). The company is now going to replace the lot with a different type.  If you bought a new car that was faulty they would try to fix “the problem” not offer you a new one.

[ProDave]

It does seem an odd solution.  If there is no valid reason for having a frost protection system in the present setup, then you would think their sollution would be to completely disable any such frost protection.  The fact they can't (or won't) must suggest they are not actually in control of the product (i.e. they re badge and sell something made by A N Other and have no access to make engineering changes)   that does not bode well if the replacement also has similar issues.

 

The monoblock will have some form of frost protection, but that need be as in my case only the very low level hum from the water circulating pump for a minute or so from time to time.

[zoothorn]

35 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Just had a look at the spec and it has a pump, the heat exchanger will make no noise at all, the pump a low hum at worst so no, should make no more noise than say your fridge at the worst.

Because they were trying to fix something that was sold you (as fit fir purpose, which it is not). The company is now going to replace the lot with a different type.  If you bought a new car that was faulty they would try to fix “the problem” not offer you a new one.

So the pump in this heat exchanger, is not the pump outside in the hydraulic thing that is, afaict, all lumped in as one monoblock unit then?

 

O know you cant say for certain, not having or knowing this particular new proposed system of course... but from the link, could you make an ecucated guess? I think this is what i pressed the chap on the phone about, the critical q, & he-said with certainty the problem pump would indeed be outside in this monoblock unit. But this ^ pump wording in the heat exchanger.. has rang alarm bells.

 

Maybe monoblock systems are very likely inherrantly similar, product to product, maybe like ' split' systems might be having this hydraulic unit in the house.
 

What on earth design principle has this hydraulic unit, in the house anywhere, is simply unfathomable to me. Thx zoot

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, ProDave said:

It does seem an odd solution.  If there is no valid reason for having a frost protection system in the present setup, then you would think their sollution would be to completely disable any such frost protection.  The fact they can't (or won't) must suggest they are not actually in control of the product (i.e. they re badge and sell something made by A N Other and have no access to make engineering changes)   that does not bode well if the replacement also has similar issues.

 

The monoblock will have some form of frost protection, but that need be as in my case only the very low level hum from the water circulating pump for a minute or so from time to time.

Interesting angle ProDave. They certainly can't disable it, as it is. It needs redesigning.. & it was eluded to that this was exatly whatwas happening behind the scenes, or rather a meeting, to redesign it. It could indeed be they have no Vaillant germany at all, but using a mfr Co in germany who make it for them. Good points. Thanks zh

[joe90]

My monoblock does not have a pump, I have a separate pump inside (very low hum), some monoblocks do have a pump within them. I also have no idea what this hydraulic unit is (maybe I should read up on it). My UFH has an additional pump which is virtually noise free.

[zoothorn]

10 hours ago, joe90 said:

My monoblock does not have a pump, I have a separate pump inside (very low hum), some monoblocks do have a pump within them. I also have no idea what this hydraulic unit is (maybe I should read up on it). My UFH has an additional pump which is virtually noise free.

Ok thanks John. My pump, in hydraulic unit ( suitcase box, in cupboard sparebedroom, 2x HP pipes come into it from big fanny outside, copper pipes come out of it, to cylinder, wretched pump in it too )... under normal heating operation, is fine, likely operating like yours, a normal 'on' fairly unobtrusive pump sound. If it only always stayed like this, had only one " gear " then yes it would still come on/ off/ on irritatingly still all thru small hours... but.... wouldn't be in this damn " high gear " pump motor mode, so 2 bedrooms away I might just not be affected by it. Ruining sleep in spare room only.

 

So, the pump only becomes a problem in the frost mode. In small hours. It quadruples in pump motor speed  ( why not simply the same motor " gear " as daytime's pumping water around rads unobtrusively.. Ive no idea or can possibly understand ).
 

But it is a design abomination. Now whether that means there is a " fault " if that is how it is designed, & it's running as it is designed & without deviation.... is a complete quandry, impossibility to comprehend, know what to do, how to argue it, everything.

 

All I could do was show my anger, at it's design, for a whole year in emails, gradual pressurising, culminating in a hollerin complaint a few days ago " I am sick of it " I concluded. I was fkn angry also with the lack of comms since april's 2x engineer visit. It seems to have worked. But whether this replacement's pump noise be tamped down sufficiently, if this wretched frost mode is the same on this new system, if the pump is outside.. I dont have total clarity on yet. But its imperative I know before deciding to proceed.

 

[joe90]

All I can say is the couple of times mine has gone into defrost it is no more noisy than ordinary running.

[dpmiller]

I wonder if all this noise in anti-frost mode is because a motorvalve is closed (as there's no heat demand)?

[zoothorn]

This is the bit that concerns me, from the "heat exchanger " info link above..

• Designed to separate the heat pump glycol circuit from the heating circuit - Only a small proportion of the system is required to be filled with glycol.

You see I spoke to the tech dept yesterday, asking what exactly is being pumped in my house, at 3 am in the frost protect mode, expecting the answer to be only 'the outside fanny unit, an antifreeze solution around its pipes'... but no. What I was told, was what was being pumped at 3 am, was not around the outside unit at all ( because it has antifreeze in it, so has inherrant protection from frost he told me yesterday ).... but.... that the pump is pushing - water- around the radiators he said. Which is nonsensical, to me being in rooms never lower than 9*C ( I said.. & he could understand my point ).

 

What I have to consider now, is that this info he told me is not true. The frost protect mode, surely surely HAS to be pushing  antifreeze solution through the outside unit, just that the pump doing it here, at 3 am, is ridiculously located far away.. in a bedroom. This is the only logic that I can apply. To override their own technical dept, with my own "engineering findings". Which is so absurd that I'm extremely reluctant to. But I have proven before that my own findings ( rather yours- someone on BH here finding the frost mode buried in my manual) are correct/ & their engineers' findings incorrect: them saying " it's a fault.. shouldnt be doing that at 3 am.. we will fix it "  was 100% f&&&&ng incorrect for a whole fkn year, 10 fkn visits.

So I have to call again, demand I speak to highest technical authority, to clear this up. What is being pumped in the frost protect mode. What is this pump in the heat exchanger. Is it the same pump involved in the frost protect mode. If not, what is this extra pump, & when does it engage, does it have different " gears " if so, what duties does it have/ when does it do them. Maddening!

[zoothorn]

21 minutes ago, joe90 said:

All I can say is the couple of times mine has gone into defrost it is no more noisy than ordinary running.

I know John. But yours is correctly designed, your pump only having one motor " gear " so you will likely not be affected by it at 3 am, even if your box containing it, is located in your spare bed cupboard, & you sleep 2 bedrooms away from it.
 

I might have slept thru it, its possible, if I ripped my hydraulic box open & replaced my pump with yours. Or I had your system. Thx zh

[dpmiller]

In a split system, there's only refrigerant gas in the outdoor unit and the pipes to-fro. If the *indoor* unit is going into anti-frost it must be because it thinks somewhere *inside* the house is dangerously cold.

 

In the proposed replacement system, antifreeze is circulated between the indoor and outdoor units. However because no-one can guarantee the right concentration of glycol has actually been filled, the Outdoor unit will occasionally pump between the indoor and outdoor units to take the chill off the fluid just-in-case.