Adsibob Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 We have gone for some pretty expensive Aluminium 2G windows which mimic the Crittall look. Most of the windows are okay, but on the largest window (which is also the one that will be most prominent in terms of us seeing it from inside when we are in the most used space in the house or seeing it from outside when we are in the garden) my architect spotted an issue with the straightness/flatness of the glass. It’s difficult to see on the video I’ve uploaded here, but effectively, rather than give a reflection like you would expect on a flat shiny surface, the reflection is almost akin to what you’d see in a mirror that deliberately distorts the reflection (like in those old amusement parks). If you play the short video a couple of times and look at the reflection on the glass you will spot the distortion. The windows are PAS 24 compliant, so it’s possible the distortion is caused by the lamination of the glass, rather than the glass itself, although this issue hasn’t come up on any of the other PAS24 windows we have had supplied and installed by this company. Given how expensive these were, should I be expecting better than this? IMG_1120.MP4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I wouldn't accept that. Btw you're brick work is stunning. Almost looks too good... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I think that's quite normal, I'm always noticing concave distortions on 2/3g glazing. It's more noticeable on thicker units, I've assumed it's just the vacuum pulling the centre of the panes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 40 minutes ago, Conor said: I wouldn't accept that. Yes, well that was my instinct. I see the forum is currently split on this 50:50, although only you and one other have weighed in... 40 minutes ago, Conor said: Btw you're brick work is stunning. Almost looks too good... Thanks! It really is impressive and makes me think it's a shame more of the project wasn't brick work, but in a road where every house is covered in pebbledash, it was hard enough getting this approved. You are right that it looks too good, as it makes all the imperfections stand out. If you look at the video, in the top left hand corner there is a minor impection. We had ordered some "specials" to deal with a funny angle, but when it came to fit them it didn't quite fit - either because the architect measured the angle wrong (unlikely) or because on an extension this big building a degree or two out at the corners would result in being out by quite a few degrees in the middle where they were to meet. So instead of waiting for new specials, I agreed for the builder to fashion his own. On the whole it looks pretty good but there are a couple of points where the cut isn't perfectly straight and so where the two angled bricks meet it has left a slightly irregular gap. I think one has to look for the defect to see it, but builder thinks he can obscure it by grinding up some of the facing brick and mixing it with some sort of bonding material and patching up the tiny gaps with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 That definitely looks odd. I don’t think it looks like bowed glass due to vacuum, it appears to be in vertical ripples, I would want the company rep out to view that and give a judgement (whatever it cost). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 I once had some very big 2g units and the panes had touched in the middle so some of the coating came off. Had them replaced. Get the rep out to look. They will try to swerve but you will get a feel for whether it is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Is that what's called "roller wave"? @craig will hopefully be along shortly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Okay, we are at 75% of respondents here say I should complain, plus my instinct makes 80%, and if @Onoff is referring to an amusement park mirror, that makes 83% so I’m going to complain. I already have to complain about the quality of the installation. Reveals aren’t even on the majority of the windows, and we checked today with a spirit level, and is definitely the installation and not the brickwork. Discrepancy of up to 15mm between the opposites side of the frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Roller wave is a real thing. I've come across it on commercial curtain walling. Like ripples in the glass. Not sure what causes it (vibration, draughts in the glass factory?) So bad sometimes that when it's installed and being cleaned, the squeegee rubber only touches the peaks on the glass and misses the troughs! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) There is a few things which occur during the glass making process and some that occur later. Such as thermal stress fractures, which are not covered under warranty. Others such as roller wave is caused by the heat treatment process of the glass and it basically sags as it goes over the rollers. You need to talk to the supplier. If following the guidelines it needs to be checked that it is within guidelines. If it is, then it's not covered as a defect nor can it be claimed as a warranty defect. However, that is terrible. Probably one of the worst that I have seen. If the supplier is a decent supplier, they would be raising a complaint with the glass supplier and organising replacements. I would personally have rejected this immediately and delayed the delivery as a result. Sometimes you only see this after delivery and I would immediately raise a complaint and to be honest, I would have organised replacement immediately even if it was at our expense. Have a look at section 4.4 of the attached. GGF Standard Data Sheet 4.4.pdf Edited June 18, 2021 by craig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share Posted June 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, craig said: If following the guidelines it needs to be checked that it is within guidelines. Very helpful @craig, thank you. Having just searched the GGF register of members, it seems that neither the supplier nor the manufacturer of the windows are members. Does that mean I have no cause for complaint? Surely not. The supplier is a member of the "Steel Window Association", FENSA and BFRC. (My windows are aluminium, but the supplier also supplies steel.) The manufacturer appears to only be a member of FENSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted June 18, 2021 Share Posted June 18, 2021 (edited) They don't have to be a member of GGF but I would strongly suspect the glass supplier will be and the will most definitely be following the GGF guidelines. The supplier will not be the manufacturer of the glass as 9x10 they will buy the glass in. FENSA is for replacements only, doesn't have anything to do with new builds. Edited June 18, 2021 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share Posted June 18, 2021 37 minutes ago, craig said: They don't have to be a member of GGF but I would strongly suspect the glass supplier will be and the will most definitely be following the GGF guidelines. The supplier will not be the manufacturer of the glass as 9x10 they will buy the glass in. FENSA is for replacements only, doesn't have anything to do with new builds. Thanks. Mine are replacements mainly, not new build. The only new built thing we have is our extension, but we are taking the opportunity to replace all the 1990s early generation uPVC windows which were really quite horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 By way of update, the window company agreed to replace the glazing units that were distorted. Even though I told them to make sure the glass is from a GGF supplier so that it complies with GGF guidelines, the distortion is just as bad. Really fed up of these idiots. I think I will have to end up suing them. They've made a bunch of other mistakes on some of the other windows, like not applying a sealant between the aluminium window frame and aluminium sill and we actually have a tiny amount of water ingress on the more exposed windows because of that. Seems like a pretty flagrantly stupid error to have made. Is it just a case of sealing the external join between window frame and sill, or should the whole frame be taken out so that two beads of sealant can be run in between the frame and sill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 23 hours ago, Adsibob said: Is it just a case of sealing the external join between window frame and sill, Depends on how the cill, is connected, if it is basically screw through the upstand to the window, then a bead of silicon should be applied. (quick example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 I need to decide what to do about this distortion issue on the glass. They have replaced it but the replacement is just as bad. They are saying “we told you so” I’m saying “you need to use a different supplier because yours clearly didn’t comply with the GGF standards. They are saying all toughened glass is like this. We are at a stalemate. The overall contract value is sufficient that the 5% retention would cover the cost of a replacement unit if I bought it from a different company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 No it’s not. It happens and some are a lot more visible than others but it’s not the “standard” of toughened glass. Ask for them to take it to GGF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassanclan Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Keep complaining. Hopefully you paid by credit card. I went to 5 different suppliers of windows before i found one that seemed to use a decent glass supplier and didn't have the bowing of the windows. You really have to go and see their installations before signing on the dotted line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 2 hours ago, bassanclan said: Keep complaining. Hopefully you paid by credit card. I went to 5 different suppliers of windows before i found one that seemed to use a decent glass supplier and didn't have the bowing of the windows. You really have to go and see their installations before signing on the dotted line. Yes, I agree with you… now. Unfortunately I was after a very specific window and only managed to find two suppliers. Neither of which accepted credit card. My only leverage is the final payment I owe them, checked my contract and it’s actually 15%, so that’s something at least. They have sorted most of the problems, it’s just this distortion issue that remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 Who is the manufacturer of the glass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adsibob Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, MJNewton said: Who is the manufacturer of the glass? I don’t know. I could ask the window company, but not sure I will be told. the windows are AG210 aluminium windows manufactured by MetTherm, supplied and installed by Govette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Adsibob said: I don’t know. I could ask the window company, but not sure I will be told. the windows are AG210 aluminium windows manufactured by MetTherm, supplied and installed by Govette. It is normally something they'd shout about as each glass manufacturer (there are only three in the UK - Pilkington, Saint Gobain and Guardian) have big marketing departments with trademarks and fancy diagrams representing their particular implementation of coatings, iron content etc. It would normally also be specified on the glass units themselves as a sticker has to be applied post-manufacturer to indicate which way round they go. I was going to suggest getting in touch with whoever made them as I've found them (well, admittedly I've only spoken to Saint Gobain) to be very helpful in discussing 'technical' matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassanclan Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 I doubt it is a problem with the glass,more likely a problem with the way the double glazed unit has been manufactured. The double glazed units may be bought from another company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, MJNewton said: Pilkington, Saint Gobain and Guardian Japanese, French, American... Could you add Permasteelisa (Italian)and Yuanda (Chinese) to that list? Guess they only do commercial... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJNewton Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Onoff said: Could you add Permasteelisa (Italian)and Yuanda (Chinese) to that list? Guess they only do commercial... They don't manufacture in the UK and so for domestic installations wouldn't expect them to get much of a look in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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