Planning Permission on Fence

[CC45]

Where is the 2m height measured from? What if the ground slopes?  I've been told (no idea if this is correct) that the 2m is from 'my' side of the boundary - so if the ground is built up on 'my' side then it could be more than 2m from the neighbours side.  Boundaries always seem to cause problems.

[Ferdinand]

12 hours ago, CC45 said:

Where is the 2m height measured from? What if the ground slopes?  I've been told (no idea if this is correct) that the 2m is from 'my' side of the boundary - so if the ground is built up on 'my' side then it could be more than 2m from the neighbours side.  Boundaries always seem to cause problems.

 

You should see the discussions on Garden Law about the height of fences in sloping gardens :-).

 

99.9% of people do what seems reasonable and everyone is not unhappy, but then someone puts a trampoline in at the bottom of their garden next to someone else's house, and so the overlooked put in a garden structure with trellis on it, or even something narrow and 3.9m high with a tiddly doubled pitched roof which is a "shed", then someone adds a solar sail and so on.

 

Or the ground level fandango can be invoked, as I think the test tends to be to "original ground level" which is manipulable since it can be no longer there. But "what about our side of the fence from the complainant" is quite easily dealt with if the difference is not outrageous. Very much the tactic used by Garden Office Builders to keep their ridgeline under 4m (?).

 

My theory is that boundary problems actually have to do with being a part-densely populated island in love with gardens and limited development land. Are there fewer disputes in Scotland (ignoring the ones concerning Hadrian's Wall) and Shropshire?

 

I think we have followed a good basic conversation which allows the Op to act within a couple of posts with a probably-useful trip round the mulberry bush which will help some surfers. I hope (I like mulberry bushes).

 

Looking forward to the answer.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Ferdinand
their there

[Trw144]

Latest update - just spoke to the enforcement officer. Basically she said that, provided I plant a hedge, then the fence is not classed as adjacent to the road and therefore within my permitted development rights. I've checked and my planning does nt say anything about permitted development rights being removed so, fingers crossed, I am ok - she would'nt actually tell me for definite on the phone and wanted to run it my the planning officer for the area.

[Calvinmiddle]

That sounds like a result there. ?

[ProDave]

Good news, so that's one more interpretation of what is and isn't "adjacent" to the highway.

[Ferdinand]

I bags the credit for providing the solution at post two.

 

[Trw144]

26 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I bags the credit for providing the solution at post two.

 

 

Hold fire, I want the confirmation letter before you send your no win no fee bill through.

[Trw144]

Ok, so email I received from planning enforcement is below..

 

Thank you for your email.

 

I have spoken to the senior planning officer, Mrs Atkins, this morning and she has advised that at present, as no hedge has been planted – the fence is unauthorised as it is over 1m in height and adjacent to the highway so could no be considered to be permitted development.

I understand that you intend to plant a hedge as per the approved plans which you have stated will be sited in front of the fence.

Until the hedgerow is planted the fence will be considered to be unauthorised. It will be interesting to note how mature the hedgerow you plant will be as it is possible that the fence may still be the dominant boundary treatment and therefore I am not able to say at this time whether the fence will be permitted development once the hedgerow is in place.

 

Please can you advise when you intend to carry out the hedgerow planting so that this case can be monitored?

 

What do you think my response should be - ultimately I have nt completed my build yet so I dont see the issue that the hedge has nt yet been planted. My heras fencing that in place beforehand was just as high and that was nt considered unauthorised. Ultimately I don't want to piss the planners off, but I m not going to roll over for them. I could tell them the other option if they would prefer would be to take down my fence if it is unauthorised and put back the heras fencing for next few years until the hedge has grown (although this would backfire if they said yes).

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Trw144

[ProDave]

I would just plant the hedge and buy mature plants so it is fairly well established quickly.

[Trw144]

I know I should do that, but its bugging me that I should have to buy mature plants because some nimby has complained. I thought you had several years for a hedges/trees to grow when I have planting on it?

 

I might ask what they expect in terms of hedging from the outset.

[Trw144]

Was going to send this but thought a second opinion would be beneficial in case I end up putting her back up...

 

Hi Amy

 

My intention is to plant the hedge in the coming weeks/months – I can’t actually do it until the pavement/footpath has been fully completed.

Obviously the hedge will take time to establish, even if I buy slightly more mature trees. If this does become an issue then the other option is to put back up my site security fencing, along with black screening and delay my build completion until the hedge has grown to the point that you deem the hedge sufficient. Whilst I am sure this is an option neither of us would think beneficial, this would at least allow you to put the matter to bed and appease the Nimby who completes complaining.

 

Kind regards

Tom

[jack]

I think your Heras fencing argument is a good one.  Instead of threatening that option, perhaps consider calling (not emailing) and explaining that:

(a) until the building work is completed you have a legal duty to keep the site secure, and the current fence achieves that outcome.  Rather than threatening Heras fencing, just make the comparison (ie, I'd be allowed to have Heras fencing, and it's more than 1m high, so why is this more attractive fencing not compliant for the moment?)

(b) say that you want to work with them to make sure you get the sizing of the hedge right up front, and ask them what size and density they would consider acceptable.  I think it's difficult for them to insist you meet some arbitrary standard that they won't set out in concrete terms up front.

 

Whatever you do, I'd be inclined to keep it verbal rather than putting it in writing.  When you write something down, people tend to read and re-read it (especially if they don't like what they read).  Small things become large, distorted things.  It's a lot easier to sound reasonable by phone.  

[joe90]

What are the exact words of your planning permission?, does it specify planting mature trees? If not then don't if you don't wish too. Get some signs printed and laminated that say " site security fencing" and pin them up all along the fence facing out. You have already stated you have a duty to provide site security fencing/Harding and the wooden fencing is more in keeping with the neighbourhood and give a commitment to remove it when they deem the hedge sufficiently grown. Otherwise paint it bright blue like other site hoarding ( then you neighbour will be pissed off).

 

we had a neighbour from hell who complained every time I did anything, even driving my own JCB around my field clearing the ditches. In the end I would Email the enforcement officer every day to explain what I was doing and how it fitted in with the permissions we had. When the neighbour complained he could explain I was doing work I was entitled too. The neighbour gave up in the end and the enforcement officer was pleased.

Edited March 13, 2017 by joe90
Add

[Jeremy Harris]

I'd second just doing this over the phone, and do as jack says, far better, in my view, to keep things as informal as possible at this stage, and just spell out that you have a duty of care to keep the site safe and secure until the hedge has grown and become established enough to form an adequate barrier.

[Ferdinand]

What are the requirements re your Heras fencing and rules as to where it goes?

 

Can you just put that back along the boundary?

 

Or put in a 1.2m post and rail with sheep netting stapled to it on the boundary? Wpuld be very quick to do and cheap.

 

Does that affect Adjacent?

 

Or you could just ignore them and aapeal the enforcement, which would give you time.

[Temp]

How about submitting a retrospective planning application for a temporary 6ft fence for say three years while the hedge grows? That might satisfy the planners who are probably concerned the hedge won't get planted.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Temp

[Calvinmiddle]

Just to remember, this is the enforcement guys, not the planners, they are different department.

I'd keep it verbal, then nothing is written down and potentially accessible but the public, like the play on the heras fence, works as long as you have a gate as well to secure the site.

But seeing that the big boys get away with over 2m ply fencing paint blue or whatever other colour they want I can't see why you shouldn't be allowed something more pretty.

But be careful you don't paint yourself into a corner with them expecting you to take it down at the end of the build.

 

[Calvinmiddle]

You could plant the hedge now, can't see why you have to wait until the footpath is finished, get some good soil in there and get them planted.

But some of that orange waist high roll fencing at the edge of your garden bed to make the edge of the property and keep the hedge save whilst it grows.

Also if you are looking for bare root plants you need to get you skates on as they normally ship them whilst plants are dormant.  You can get plants up to 6ft for not a huge amount.

 

[Trw144]

2 minutes ago, Calvinmiddle said:

You could plant the hedge now, can't see why you have to wait until the footpath is finished, get some good soil in there and get them planted.

But some of that orange waist high roll fencing at the edge of your garden bed to make the edge of the property and keep the hedge save whilst it grows.

Also if you are looking for bare root plants you need to get you skates on as they normally ship them whilst plants are dormant.  You can get plants up to 6ft for not a huge amount.

 

 

My plan is to do it over the next few weeks - the pavement tarmac is being done with my drive either tomorrow or Wednesday. Is there a definitive list of native hedgerow plants anywhere? Next thing someone will claim my hedge is nt native.

[Ferdinand]

You probably need your hedge in by the end of March at the very latest, then it wants flood watering twice a week through the summer until autumn rains. Makes a huge difference.

 

For native hedging plants try the RHS website or your commercial nursery.

 

That is probably a small issue once they are in unless you try bananas or pomegranate or similar.

 

I am not convinced that anyone ... including an enforcement officer ... trying to argue that a hedge is unacceptable because it has not grown enough has a leg to stand on; practice recognises that hedges and trees grow and take time and develop iirc a bit like cats or peacocks but not like dogs, which is also why you are not usually responsible for your tree demolishing next door's Porsche until it is proven that you know the tree has problems.

 

It may be different if you are Planning Conditioned for initial hedge height, which would be nuts. Surely we do not have many of that sort of Little Hitler even in 2016?

 

The complainants are burbling away about dots and tittles, and full stops that are allegedly upside down.

 

I think that this may be a smaller problem than seems; really the problem is about the complainant treating your project like a toothache.

 

I am not sure how you close it down in your circs, however. But my stance would say once I have decided my position, I would do it and tell them all to put up or shut up.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ferdinand

[joe90]

https://www.hopesgrovenurseries.co.uk/

[Trw144]

32 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

You probably need your hedge in by the end of March at the very latest, then it wants flood watering twice a week through the summer until autumn rains. Makes a huge difference.

 

For native hedging plants try the RHS website or your commercial nursery.

 

That is probably a small issue once they are in unless you try bananas or pomegranate or similar.

 

I am not convinced that anyone ... including an enforcement officer ... trying to argue that a hedge is unacceptable because it has not grown enough has a leg to stand on; practice recognises that hedges and trees grow and take time and develop iirc a bit like cats or peacocks but not like dogs, which is also why you are not usually responsible for your tree demolishing next door's Porsche until it is proven that you know the tree has problems.

 

It may be different if you are Planning Conditioned for initial hedge height, which would be nuts. Surely we do not have many of that sort of Little Hitler even in 2016?

 

The complainants are burbling away about dots and tittles, and full stops that are allegedly upside down.

 

I think that this may be a smaller problem than seems; really the problem is about the complainant treating your project like a toothache.

 

I am not sure how you close it down in your circs, however. But my stance would say once I have decided my position, I would do it and tell them all to put up or shut up.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Ferdinand, this is the approach I would like to take - I don't see why I should shell out on expensive tall hedging plants rather than smaller whips.

 

Also, I know of a very similar project close by that had the exactly the same situation - and they planted 1ft high laurels! What is the situation with planning - can they enforce in one situation and not another. Does precedent exist in planning or is it just a case of enforcement if someone complains?

[Calvinmiddle]

Just get this

 

http://www.hedging.co.uk/acatalog/product_10798.html

 

If anyone complains ask them when they think they know better than professional horticulturists

 

[Ferdinand]

@Trw144

 

They don't usually make things be undone unless there is a real real real problem, so really this now comes down to your judgement call.

 

I see very little point in going for 2ft or 5ft rather than 1ft bare root plants for horticultural reasons. Look after them well and they will be at 2ft or 5ft in a very short period of time anyway.

 

Precedent sometimes exists and sometimes doesn't and it can be very much on a whim and dependent on circumstances. If they enforce you will be able to tie them up for months in bureaucracy if you wish. But if the complainant turns out to be a barnacle you may keep being approached.

 

Do you feel lucky?

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

On a technical point - can planning conditions like this one actually be enforced against before the project is complete?

 

Ferdinand