hmpmarketing Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 57 minutes ago, bassanclan said: Is there room for him to park between your boundary and the side of his house? You could offer him access over your land to get to this strip of land I.e the first part of your drive would be shared access Something I may have forgotten to say: He DOES have parking, to the left of his property he has his land rover parked in there!! So it is not like he does not have any other space. Also, his van is probably owned by the company he works for. To the right of his property there is not enough room, his property is about 1m or so away from my fence (which I am replacing for free!) @Steptoe it seems you like to cause trouble! I would never park my car close to someone so they couldn't get out, or block with my wife's car! And my first post was, I am looking to hear what everyones thoughts is, I am not simply removing the guys parking, I want to talk to him first! And how can it be HIS parking? Its on the street Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 5 minutes ago, ProDave said: Unless of course No 14 has changed hands since the plot was divided off? I dont think he owned the plot when it was divided. I believe it was split off, plot was sold to someone else. This is a view in 2009: This is 2013: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 The access in that photo is not as bad as it looks from the plan. As long as nobody is parking to block the access to No 16, then even with his van in the parking space, it looks like you can get into your plot okay. It's probably only large lorries that might be an issue, and if it's in the daytime when his van is not there.... I can see why the space is where it is, to put it where I proposed earlier would block access to his own drive. I also guess even if the space was deleted, in the absence of double yellows, he would carry on parking there. On ballance I would probably just have a word about being prepared to move or not park there when you are expecting large vehicles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 At that angle it looks ok...but you have to maneuver around the van when its there Another angle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 25 minutes ago, hmpmarketing said: Something I may have forgotten to say: He DOES have parking, to the left of his property he has his land rover parked in there!! So it is not like he does not have any other space. Also, his van is probably owned by the company he works for. To the right of his property there is not enough room, his property is about 1m or so away from my fence (which I am replacing for free!) @Steptoe it seems you like to cause trouble! I would never park my car close to someone so they couldn't get out, or block with my wife's car! And my first post was, I am looking to hear what everyones thoughts is, I am not simply removing the guys parking, I want to talk to him first! And how can it be HIS parking? Its on the street Well, I'm not here just to cause trouble, I'm putting a POV across, Just because I don't simply give everyone a pat on the back, and tell them what they are doing is brilliant doesn't make me a troublemaker, I'm merely saying how I see it. And what exactly is the problem with me blocking someone in when they are making my much less than able wife struggle across a carpark with a 3 year old and shopping,? But you think its fine to make your neighbour park elsewhere even though there is plenty enough room to get a car or van into your drive,? Do as I say, not as I do? I never said it was 'his' parking, I put it in quotations, So if you know you need to talk to him, why the OP,? Talk to the guy, tell him what you are going to do, seems like you have already decided anyway, the lines are being removed, that's the fact here, what will stop him still parking there though?, as long as you still have access, like you have, I don't see the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 @Steptoe I merely asked on how to approach him, thats all. I am not suggesting I want to kick the guy out, and considering what the highway authority has said, thats a "rogue" parking space so hence my request for some feedback! And the way you put it your wife's struggle with someone blocking her, that changes the angle I see it, and I would be pissed off too, but then I would not resort to blocking someone, thats just me, some people are different. Again, I am trying to find the best way to approach him, thats the point of the OP, to discuss the best outcome.... I have not decided anything by the way, the lines removed was a suggestion from the highway authority when asked about the new access point, as well as a planning note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 So get the lines removed and see where he parks? My guess is he only parks there because he knows if he doesn't someone else will. If it ceases to be a parking space, he might just use his own drive. I had a friend who used to park on the road which as it happened was closer to his front door than his own driveway, simply because if he didn't park there, someone else would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Steptoe said: And what exactly is the problem with me blocking someone in when they are making my much less than able wife struggle across a carpark with a 3 year old and shopping,? The short answer is the Road Traffic Act and Obstructing the Highway..! Quick way to get 3 points and a minimum £60 fine these days ... you just need a PC having a bad day and they will ticket for it..! I do get your point though - I had neighbours who used to park on my driveway and not care but it took about 6 months of careful negotiations to get them to realise it was mine and not theirs despite it being clearly in front of my house ...! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, PeterW said: The short answer is the Road Traffic Act and Obstructing the Highway..! Quick way to get 3 points and a minimum £60 fine these days ... you just need a PC having a bad day and they will ticket for it..! I do get your point though - I had neighbours who used to park on my driveway and not care but it took about 6 months of careful negotiations to get them to realise it was mine and not theirs despite it being clearly in front of my house ...! You can't be prosecuted for blocking access to your own property. They were blocking access to my property, so I blocked them, its simple. As for the parking so close they couldn't open the doors, the polis actually laughed at that, and said he couldn't think of what charge it may come under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Steptoe said: You can't be prosecuted for blocking access to your own property. Ok under English law - and specifically under Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980 And Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, it is an offence to prevent free passage of the traffic or cause wilful obstruction of the highway. That's statute law. If you prevent a vehicle from being able to proceed either to the highway, or along it by obstruction which includes blocking vehicles into driveways including your own, you have commited an offence. And there is no law to stop me stopping you accessing your property ..! So if you are out and can't get onto your driveway it's tough, if you're on your driveway and can't get out then it's obstruction. The case law on this is very clear and amusing to read ..! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 4 hours ago, hmpmarketing said: @JSHarris Yes, the plot was part of number 14, it was a huge garden plot owned by a previous couple that has passed away, so yes, it used to belong to number 14! Slightly relevant to the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 49 minutes ago, PeterW said: Ok under English law - and specifically under Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980 And Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, it is an offence to prevent free passage of the traffic or cause wilful obstruction of the highway. That's statute law. If you prevent a vehicle from being able to proceed either to the highway, or along it by obstruction which includes blocking vehicles into driveways including your own, you have commited an offence. And there is no law to stop me stopping you accessing your property ..! So if you are out and can't get onto your driveway it's tough, if you're on your driveway and can't get out then it's obstruction. The case law on this is very clear and amusing to read ..! Ah, well then the polis that visited me are wrong then, That was a very specific point they made, about blocking access to property was something they had no issue charging someone with, They said it was a very clear cut case in blocking a dropped kerb. There is in fact very clear cut law in blocking access to a persons property, much like trespass, except trespass is only civil, If you block access on the public highway then you commit a criminal offence, if I block someone already on my property its simply civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Ok. Looking at the pics it's quite easy to see that this guy can get both his Landy and his van on HIS drive. Also, as a medium, he can park his van across his drive, face on, and if he needs to get the Landy out he just moves his van. At the very last resort, the space can be moved 3' to the left and placed at a slight angle, sympathetic to the acces to your plot. I think it's simply a case of meeting with this guy and saying it exactly as it is, as he's not exactly going to be massively put out by moving over a bit, or parking on his own drive. Go knock his door, and just spit it out. . You'll feel much better when you know where you stand. . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 @PeterW Very interesting read indeed....lol, so basically, obstructing you from getting IN your driveway is not an offence...obstructing from getting OUT is? I will keep you all updated on this. I just want to create an opportunity/situation to come and speak with him. Thank you very much for everyones thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 24 minutes ago, hmpmarketing said: @PeterW Very interesting read indeed....lol, so basically, obstructing you from getting IN your driveway is not an offence...obstructing from getting OUT is? I will keep you all updated on this. I just want to create an opportunity/situation to come and speak with him. Thank you very much for everyones thoughts! Yes, that's right, and I had a running battle at our old house with people going to church on the other side of the road parking across our drive and stopping us getting out. The police got so fed up turning up to get cars shifted they asked the council if they would consider painting yellow lines, the council replied they didn't need to as it was already illegal parking, both because it was blocking our exit and because it was less than 30m (I think) from a junction. In the end, the problem was only sorted by a change of vicar at the church. The new one agreed to read out a regular notice at each service about consideration for others when parking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 30 minutes ago, JSHarris said: In the end, the problem was only sorted by a change of vicar at the church Do you know anything about the disappearance of the original vicar Jeremy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) @hmpmarketing,I find myself largely agreeing with @Steptoe, except for the Direct Action to solve parking problems. I think the underlying cause here is the original plot divider not thinking it through. Suspect that for the sake of 3-4m and a slightly more complex driveway layout, he may actually have reduced the combined value of the plot plus the leaving the existing No 14 with a garden from Lilliput. Hey-ho. Ideally that may have been resolved at plot purchase stage, but there will be a good reason why that was not done. But ... what is the origin of that parking box? It does seem curiously positioned for something official - was it just put on by agreement between the neighbours at the two houses? The problem will be the difference between perception and legal reality, and perhaps what the vendor of No 14 told Mr Van Man when he bought it. Would it be helpful to check if the space was there before he moved in? Compare the dates from the Land Registry with your Google photo, I believe that the Planning Permission itself will not override anything to do with parking, as it doesn't in boundary arguments etc ("Nothing to do with me guv, we are just planners."), and that conversations will therefore be in the area of private expectations, Council parking rules, or the Highways area. I do not know what rights develop just by use of a parking space over a period on a public road (privately they will develop). But my experience in my planning application where we created a road junction was that Highways have a very high priority indeed in overruling other claims. Half a dozen houses on the other side of the road had believed for 30 years that the highway verge, which we knew had been there for road widening for nearly half a century, was part of their gardens. Our regional development company purchaser accepted a note from Highways plus an analysis of title deeds laid over a Highways Plan as sufficient. Suggestions? Two tracks 1 - Work out what you actually need to do the build, and co-ordinate with him wrt to moving the van which should perhaps only be needed for larger operations. 2 - It is either bite the bullet and make it be moved (which you can do) or find out whether you can live with it. That drive is about 4.2m wide, is it not (3 fence panels plus posts = 5.8-6m divided by sqrt(2) for the angle)? Does that give enough scope for 99% of future traffic? Can you just manage the exceptions? You could try letting him know what Highways said and saying you will see if you can refrain from making him take it away, but that feels as if it falls between 2 stools. If I was him I would be backing the van into my drive anyway to avoid theft of tools etc anyway if feasible. Is there scope for persuading him to put the van in the drive and the Landy on the road? Ferdinand * (Except for the direct action to solve the parking problem . In my observation that is likely to get all your door mirrors broken off by person or persons unknown.) Edited March 5, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) On 03/03/2017 at 22:41, Steptoe said: You can't be prosecuted for blocking access to your own property. They were blocking access to my property, so I blocked them, its simple. As for the parking so close they couldn't open the doors, the polis actually laughed at that, and said he couldn't think of what charge it may come under The authorities could easily get you under the "Protection from Harrassment Act 1997 (As Amended)" for that, were they so minded, or you could be referred to the Council's community safety team. The tests for the former are laughably mild. Quote 1Prohibition of harassment. (1)A person must not pursue a course of conduct— (a)which amounts to harassment of another, and (b)which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other. and Quote 7Interpretation of this group of sections. ... (2)References to harassing a person include alarming the person or causing the person distress. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/1 IIRC it even has provision for the police to send you a "we have not proof that you are committing a criminal offence ... BUT" threatening letter. Given that it is all done with cars with registered owners etc, proof is hardly a problem. Stalking charges would also be a possibility. You could also get a "whatever-is-the-current-term-for-ASBO". Then you are into potentially losing eg the ability to do voluntary activities, as School Governors etc would run a mile if it starts coming up in eg Enhanced CRB checks. These laws tend to be applied inconsistently as it is usually reactive, so in response to complaints. Ferdinand Edited March 5, 2017 by Ferdinand Tangential comment removed. Ask me on the non-building forum if youw ant a debate about Harrassment Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Just go talk to the guy, if he kicks off then so be it, yet another neighbour that's not speaking. This is all probably a storm in a tea cup. Let us know how you get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Hello @Ferdinand, thank you for your very thorough input! 3 hours ago, Ferdinand said: But ... what is the origin of that parking box? It does seem curiously positioned for something official - was it just put on by agreement between the neighbours at the two houses? A bit of history about the plot: number 14 was originally owned by an elderly couple (this is from conversations I have had with neighbours living there nearly two decades). Plots were then a huge nursery with glass houses, seems they loved gardening. When they passed away, family decided to sell the house and split, house was put on sale and eventually sold to van man (this bit is only assumed). Plot was sold to another party, two previous owners before me. Owner 1 (developer) tried to get permission to build 3 houses, was eventually refused by the council, sold plot to Owner 2, did not go ahead with development and then I managed to purchase off him. Previous planning applications all state that the parking space in question may need to be modified due to new access point. I decided to contact the Highway Authority in order to better get an idea on what that would entail, this was last May. Upon coming to site, the first thing he mentioned was exactly what you stated "curiously positioned"; and defined it as a "rogue" parking space, probably due to the orientation. Another funny thing I did not mention, parking marks match size of van . So to answer you, I m not really sure there was any agreement, again all parking on the street and all streets surrounding our area are not allocated spaces. Anyways, he contacted his superior (Traffic Engineer) and his reply was that the parking had no relevance there, and that it could be removed, either by me or contractor. I have reluctantly left this issue aside until now, so hence my OP, and as @joe90 said, this may be a storm in a teacup, and I will just go and have a chat. On the day of the site visit, he wasn't home, but a quick word with his then girlfriend (his daughters mum) regarding the issue, she said he was a very reasonable guy, so we will see how it goes! 21 minutes ago, joe90 said: Just go talk to the guy, if he kicks off then so be it, yet another neighbour that's not speaking. This is all probably a storm in a tea cup. Let us know how you get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Just thinking about this, He could move his van over 3' or so, would that help you much,? He maybe only parks exactly there as that is the marked space, he could move over a bit and still leave clear access to his driveway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Steptoe said: Just thinking about this, He could move his van over 3' or so, would that help you much,? He maybe only parks exactly there as that is the marked space, he could move over a bit and still leave clear access to his driveway. It would certainly help, I think moving the space over to the left and having the van in the garage / Landy in the parking space would make the entrance with better and clear access, we shall see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptoe Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Suggestion, When you meet up with him, show him the paper where they say you have to remove 'his' space, but explain that you don't think that's very fair, and ask if he would mind ,that, rather than delete 'his' space, could WE move it over so it is parallel to his driveway. Anyone half reasonable would settle for that I would think, plus, you are now on his side, by ignoring the rule you were gave to remove the space, and instead have simply moved it a bit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmpmarketing Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 @Steptoe thanks for your feedback got more cards to play now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Surely he has just painted that parking space himself. I can't see how an officially sanctioned parking space would extend from the road onto the pavement. Indeed now seeing that number 14 has a driveway and looking at the original map showing space in front of number 10 and number 16 the whole situation looks very suspicious. I am guessing that all of these houses have driveways. The council does not paint bays in front of people's houses on the public road that are their own personal parking (at least certainly not here). People do not own parking on the public highway. Fair enough if it was some kind of separate parking area, but it doesn't appear to be. Around here what the council does is paint single white lines across the front of driveways to dissuade people parking in front of them. Surely the council only paint individual spaces if they are charging for parking. Depends on how unpopular you want to be, but I suspect that if you check with the highways department they are indeed all "rogue" spaces. Edited March 6, 2017 by AliG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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