New member problems with kitchen extension

[joe90]

If the boundary is their house wall their guttering and foundations are on your land surely. It’s amazing how some neighbours believe they have control over others land. You need to establish their foundation depth and whether you can have your foundations (or raft)  at the same level to negate a party wall agreement. Dont be bullied!.

[Bobby Dazzler]

Indeed Joe, she really is a control freak. What I really need is someone who could simply sit in a machine with whirly things going around and absorb the world knowledge on housing law.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

What I really need

Is to dig a hole on your property next to their wall to establish the depth of their foundations, she cannot stop you and you can move on to the next step. also if their foundation “sticks out” as it should your side, and their guttering, facia etc is out from the wall the boundary (should) be at that point otherwise it’s trespassing. (Get that hole dug and get back to us ?).

Edited May 13, 2021 by joe90

[Bobby Dazzler]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Is to dig a hole on your property next to their wall to establish the depth of their foundations, she cannot stop you and you can move on to the next step. ?

Agreed thanks. I suspect that their ground level being higher than ours will not be good news in terms of avoiding the party wall issue.

[saveasteading]

If you summarise what you now know, I think you will realise all is ok.

The PWA itself can be tricky to read but there are well explained summaries with sketches online.

 

Your concerns re demo understood. To remove the apparent risk and real worry, explain to the neighbour first, with an independent letter perhaps, and drawing,  and have the argument before building. More likely it is shown to the family QS who says 'fair enough'.

 

Your Architect and/or Engineer can show the cross section relative to the neighbouring house with a big NOTE ON IT.. " the new foundations are not below the neighbours therefore the Party Wall Act is not an issue. approx. 800 gap left is ample for access."

In the unlikely event that neighbour still complained, after the event, you will be seen to have been utterly reasonable throughout.

[saveasteading]

(Get that hole dug and get back to us ?).

 

Then there may be other solutions that are shallower. Raft foundation only about 450 deep.

 

(Just to reduce another worry:  I saw an earlier worry about builder costs if aborted. They can only claim reasonable loss of earnings. Keep an eye on whether they are busy elsewhere)

[Bobby Dazzler]

thanks Saveasteading. That sounds like a very reasonable approach.

[Bobby Dazzler]

A small update.....

Mrs Bobby Dazzler has just got back from speaking to her. I'm banned from speaking to her as diplomacy is definitely not my middle name. Nothing constructive particularly, mostly entirely irrelevant stuff trying to persuade her we didn't need it !! although she did mention she wanted to get people around with scaffolding to check her wall etc. Sounds highly suspect to me being as they didn't use scaffolding in the two previous visits (in 23 years). Setting a precedent perhaps ? I daresay they'll site Health and Safety as a reason. Trouble is we can't really refuse as they do have a right to inspect and can (currently) erect scaffolding quite easily.

[PeterW]

5 minutes ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

Trouble is we can't really refuse as they do have a right to inspect and can (currently) erect scaffolding quite easily.

OK they have a right to inspect but not to erect scaffolding .... and even if they did they still need your permission .! For example, they cannot erect scaffolding that would block your usage of your property without your express permission. 
 

And this all hinges around what is “reasonable” and a surveyor would not reasonably require scaffold to inspect a wall - if they did then it would be commonplace and I’ve never seen it used in over 30 years !!

[Bobby Dazzler]

Thanks Peter, the plot thickens. They're as slippery as a barrel of greased ferrets.

How would a surveyor normally inspect a wall in a situation like this and is there any recent legislation Health and Safety wise they could use to attempt to justify using scaffolding.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Bobby Dazzler
typo

[PeterW]

Most surveyors I know won’t even use a set of steps to get into an attic, never mind scaffolding ..!

 

How old are the houses as it’s very rare to do anything like inspections unless there is a visible issue or they are selling. 
 

If the houses are similar age, get Mrs Bobby Dazzler to ask why the neighbour wants the wall inspected... and see if it’s bluff..

[Bobby Dazzler]

The houses are early 70's. There's also the guttering to consider which is quite high up so may use that to justify scaffolding.  I'm just playing devils advocate for the inevitable obfuscation they'll be throwing at us.

[Big Jimbo]

I would be leaving them 600mm max. Enough room for a not too fat builder to get in an make any repairs to the section of wall on the ground floor in the future. If at some point in the future they want to do some work on their wall higher up than they would still be able to do it. A scaffolding company would span your extension from the front to the back, no problem. And i would not be allowing them onto your land, without a full method statement, insurance in place to cover any damage to your land or property, and i would ensure that the insurance covered anybody who they employed to work on there house. I'm sorry, but you are allowing yourself to be bullied. Your extension would be much better a further 200mm wider.

[Mr Punter]

As others have said, you probably will not need a Party Wall award and the fees and time that would cost.  A couple of trial holes down to the base of their foundations would be all your engineer and Building Control would need to establish that foundations at the same depth would be structurally acceptable.

 

Regarding the access for inspection, not really an issue and this could be carried out at ground level or a small scaffold tower could be erected.  As long as they have access it is up to them how to do the inspection.

[Bobby Dazzler]

Funnily enough the original plan was for just that, a 600 mm gap I think but we had a plan B done as well at 800 mm gap.

 

Mrs BD has just confirmed that their excuse is that they need to check the guttering.

 

And yes they are bullying us, I'm hopping mad but they're very good at it and they're so much more sussed than us. We're seemingly having circles run around us. It's a trade off between standing up for yourself and how much stress and uncertainty you can take.

 

I'm still taking all the fantastic advice on board as well, can't thank you all enough.

[joe90]

I have seen loads of houses built closer than 600mm, if 600mm was a minimum then surely each party should be 300mm from the boundary.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2751782/Couple-s-fury-4ft-gap-houses-completely-swallowed-building-work-door.html

 

psss, you dug that hole yet? ?

Edited May 13, 2021 by joe90

[Buzz]

Don't let your neighbors stress you out you are not doing anything wrong , you have every right to explore the possibility of extending your home and it seems your architect see's no issues with building up to 600mm from your boundary. 

As i see it you legally have the right to build and once you know the depth of their foundations you will know how to build, trench or raft to avoid PWA. 

Personally i would take the attitude of , I've tried to be nice and that clearly isn't working so just going to crack on and do as advised from the architect , SE and building control and if you want to pop round and talk to me about what I'm up to best bring an apology and change of attitude , if not , do one. ( i get very grumpy around people who think they can bully others ) 

[Bobby Dazzler]

26 minutes ago, Buzz said:

Don't let your neighbors stress you out you are not doing anything wrong , you have every right to explore the possibility of extending your home and it seems your architect see's no issues with building up to 600mm from your boundary. 

As i see it you legally have the right to build and once you know the depth of their foundations you will know how to build, trench or raft to avoid PWA. 

Personally i would take the attitude of , I've tried to be nice and that clearly isn't working so just going to crack on and do as advised from the architect , SE and building control and if you want to pop round and talk to me about what I'm up to best bring an apology and change of attitude , if not , do one. ( i get very grumpy around people who think they can bully others ) 

Thanks Buzz. Are you saying that if we use this raft foundation method we can go closer than 3 metres without invoking PWA ?

I still fear the fact we are on a substantially lower level than them may prove to be an issue. We're trying to get the builder over to hopefully answer a few issues.

[joe90]

Until you dig that hole you cannot move on, we are dealing with unknowns, it depends on soil type, slope etc etc. Once you know the depth of their foundation and the soil type at that depth even an architect, builder or BC officer cannot say. Get diggin ?

Edited May 13, 2021 by joe90

[Buzz]

44 minutes ago, Bobby Dazzler said:

Thanks Buzz. Are you saying that if we use this raft foundation method we can go closer than 3 metres without invoking PWA ?

No idea , but the people who do know will need .....

 

29 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Until you dig that hole you cannot move on, we are dealing with unknowns, it depends on soil type, slope etc etc. Once you know the depth of their foundation and the soil type at that depth even an architect, builder or BC officer cannot say. Get diggin ?

If you can grab a spade and start digging down , expose the foundation and keep going down until you find the bottom of the concrete measure and take pic;s , now you will know what potential  options you have available to you.  

[saveasteading]

Assuming next door foundations come onto your land, (as we are assuming, but which they should not), then you should dig against the brick wall until you expose the top of the  concrete footing, then down the face of the footing until the bottom. 

Then measure down to the bottom. This will be  on your land.

While at it take all measurements, horizontal and vertical for the cross-section drawing you can then share here.

 

From this you will know that you can go equally as deep. It doesn't matter that your site slopes away as this is the point that matters.

 

Do that first then tell us all. Measure and take pictures. show your Architect and Engineer.

 

In principle if you find  0.9 or 1m or so, then no problems at all.  If less, then your Engineer might argue that you should do exactly the same, as it has worked for a long time. If much less then clever design will be required, such as a raft to spread the load without going so deep.....but that is not our job here as we can give advice and suggestions but not detailed designs .

 

This will be a big hole if it has to go down 900mm. You will need working space, somewhere to take the earth out of the way, and you will not want to do it twice. 

It might be wide for 600 depth, and then a narrower trench down the concrete face.

 

A good labourer will likely do it in an hour or so, plus barrowing time.

Safety considerations are required,  both while digging (hole collapse) and when the hole is left open (risk of falling in).

Consider whether there are any drains there before starting.

 

This hole will later have to be refilled, thoroughly and compacted, but not until it has been seen and recorded.

 

good luck.

 

 

[AliMcLeod]

14 hours ago, saveasteading said:

 

 

This will be a big hole if it has to go down 900mm. You will need working space, somewhere to take the earth out of the way, and you will not want to do it twice. 

It might be wide for 600 depth, and then a narrower trench down the concrete face.

 

A good labourer will likely do it in an hour or so, plus barrowing time.

Safety considerations are required,  both while digging (hole collapse) and when the hole is left open (risk of falling in).

Consider whether there are any drains there before starting.

 

This hole will later have to be refilled, thoroughly and compacted, but not until it has been seen and recorded.

 

good luck.

 

 

 

Just an idea if you're digging the hole - i've just been putting some 4x4 posts in and have dug to 800mm with this auger (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D847FYY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and the hole is only around 200mm round. Depending on your soil (number of stones, clay etc) it could take less than an hour to do.

 

You might need to make the hole a bit wider so you can get a good view of the bottom (though a phone with torch will help) but there no reason you could not use the same, even if you have to dig a bit using a spade to get to 900-1000mm deep. 

[Ferdinand]

Personally I think that there is an element of cat with fur stroked the wrong way here.

 

They will probably have a legal right to maintain their walls under the Access to Neighbouring Land Act, subject to certain conditions.

 

But your position seems very reasonable indeed - 800mm is plenty for access, and offers no impediment to putting scaffolding in.

 

Perhaps introduce them to narrow scaffolding, or to a hire place that will rent them a scaffold tower that fits your proposed gap.

 

eg https://www.hss.com/hire/c/access/access-towers-and-platforms

https://www.zarges.com/uk/products/reachmaster-mobile-scaffold-tower

 

I would also consider optimising your walls to have insulation that makes them as narrow as possible. 100mm extra in a 2m wide room is the difference between a fat man feeling squashed or comfortable sitting on your loo.

 

Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

On 14/05/2021 at 08:50, AliMcLeod said:

 

Just an idea if you're digging the hole - i've just been putting some 4x4 posts in and have dug to 800mm with this auger (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D847FYY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and the hole is only around 200mm round. Depending on your soil (number of stones, clay etc) it could take less than an hour to do.

 

You might need to make the hole a bit wider so you can get a good view of the bottom (though a phone with torch will help) but there no reason you could not use the same, even if you have to dig a bit using a spade to get to 900-1000mm deep. 

 

If you are up against the wall that handle won't fit when you turn it. Unless you are some way away from the wall.

 

You would perhaps be better with a fencing bar and an earth grabbing tool. Both inexpensive.

 

Pay a bloke £30 to dig it, and watch whilst drinking tea and gnawing on a gingernut.

[Dave Jones]

of no direct use to you but we had a similar asshole as a neighbour.  We had a small paddock (remote to house) and the neighbour continually caused us hassle, he stored all sorts of machinery on his and was forever smashing fences, tearing up the road etc.

 

In the end i sold it to gypsies who moved in with 3 vans. 

 

Sometimes you have to talk to these people in the only manner they understand.