Getting the phone connected at my new house...

[ProDave]

Today's job was to try and organise getting the phone line connected at the new house. Previously Open Reach had visited, given us the cable and duct which is all installed so it just needs connecting under the grass verge, and a socket connecting in the house.

 

First phone call to BT new connections did not go well. He could not find the address of the new house on the address data base *. He stated he cannot process the order until the house appears on the address data base. I argued that my next door neighbour managed to get his phone line connected without being on the database, so it must be possible. No it is not. Can I speak to your manager please. I gave up after 10 minutes of canned music, that was never going to be answered.

 

So I call back, expecting this time to have to get irate at the call to the manager not being answered. Instead I got a different operative, this time much more helpful, who finding it not on the database simply said I will have to put it through manually and proceeded to take all the details and place the order.

 

I have an activation date of 23rd March, so watch this space to see if it happens.

 

* as a point of principle, I am at the moment refusing to pay to get the new address listed on the address database. I didn't pay for the last house, and I have been receiving post to the new house with its new address for well over a year (electricity bill) so I personally have nothing to gain by paying for that. So I am holding out on the basis if someone else wants it they can pay for it (a whole different topic of course) I suspect that will come to a head when we start getting charged for council tax?

 

[Temp]

I think you can use one of these links to get a new address listed in the PAF database...

 

http://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/update-your-address

 

Under "What's the problem" there is an option to select "I have moved into a newly built property" or "I can't find my address on the postcode finder".

 

or

http://www.royalmail.com/postcode-finder-address-enquiry-form

 

"if you have moved into a new house, you can use this form to tell us."

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I went through this last year.  Bear in mind this is experience of "English rules", though, they may well be different in Scotland.  Before I could get the Royal Mail to list the address on the PAF database I had to register the address with the local authority street naming team (and yes, there is a fat fee to pay for this..................).  They insist that any new address must be created by them and have a policy on what they will or will not allow as a house name (no numbers here, it's a very rural area).  They accepted my suggestion for the house name, but they had already warned me that they would refuse a range of names that might be confused with nearby houses (being next to an old Mill, on Mill Lane, means that a fair few houses around here have the word "Mill" in them).

 

Once I had the certificate showing a new postal address, the Royal Mail "should" have automatically updated the PAF, although we were warned this can take up to three months.  I kept chasing and eventually had our address listed in around 8 weeks, and could then get the phone line put in.  Even now our address doesn't show on a lot of the copies of the PAF that companies and organisations use, as often they will only update their databases once a year.  We're still not showing on our electricity suppliers address database (or weren't as of a couple of months ago when they last checked), for example.

 

We've never had a problem with the post, though, as the postman has watched the build from the start so knows exactly who we are, and just uses his initiative, rather than his employers address information.  We do still have problems with postal package deliveries, because some of the couriers have yet to update their own copies of the PFA database, and refuse to accept parcels to any address not listed.

Edited February 28, 2017 by JSHarris

[ProDave]

32 minutes ago, Temp said:

I think you can use one of these links to get a new address listed in the PAF database...

 

http://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/update-your-address

 

Under "What's the problem" there is an option to select "I have moved into a newly built property" or "I can't find my address on the postcode finder".

 

or

http://www.royalmail.com/postcode-finder-address-enquiry-form

 

"if you have moved into a new house, you can use this form to tell us."

 

 

 

Thanks. I have "reported" it in that first link. I ticked "no" to has it been built within the last 12 months.  I well see if anything happens as a result of that. I also added the note that we have been receiving post for 2 years and the postman has no trouble delivering to the house.
 

[AliG]

@jsharris I had no idea they charged for this. If you don't do it what happens when they want to put it on the council tax register. Do they just call it "house 50m from" or something like that.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, AliG said:

@jsharris I had no idea they charged for this. If you don't do it what happens when they want to put it on the council tax register. Do they just call it "house 50m from" or something like that.

 

 

I guess so, in all the council correspondence over the council tax fiasco they used the description in the planning application, which was misleading, as it's the wrong postcode and the wrong road (because our plot used to be the orchard at the bottom of the garden of a house that's on an adjacent lane).

[AliG]

I looked it up for Edinburgh. They charge £45 for  a single house.

 

Apparently it comes under the statutory address powers of the Civic Government(Scotland) Act 1982. Presumably there is a similar act in England.

 

As ever the fee for these things is supposed to cover the reasonable cost. I guess that an argument can be made for £45 although it may only take a few minutes. The fee for 50 houses is only £282.

 

If you would like a new street sign to go with your new address its yours for £205 in Edinburgh!

[Triassic]

You need to contact the Street Naming team in your local Planning Department, it is they who add your house to the official database. We found that our address then appeared on the Post Office address database within a couple of days and in less than a month it started to appear on address lists of the like a Amazon, DVLA and the like.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, Triassic said:

You need to contact the Street Naming team in your local Planning Department, it is they who add your house to the official database. We found that our address then appeared on the Post Office address database within a couple of days and in less than a month it started to appear on address lists of the like a Amazon, DVLA and the like.

Like I say I am actively trying to avoid that. A fee of £145 was mentioned once up here ant that's extortion to add a house name to an existing list.

 

I will carry on without paying that as long as I can as a matter of protest. If I succeed in getting the phone line installed with the address manually entered that's one step closer. I already managed that some time ago with the electricity.
 

[Jeremy Harris]

I paid £115.50.........................

 

Our councils charges are here: http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/street-naming-numbering-fees-15-march.pdf

[AliG]

@ProDave why don't you send them the Edinburgh fee schedule and ask how they justify being almost three times as expensive. These fees are supposed to cover costs, not be a profit centre. I believe that is written into law.

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk//download/downloads/id/5132/statutory_addressing_fees_2015-2016.pdf

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I paid £115.50.........................

 

Wyre Borough charges £24.

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Wyre Borough charges £24.

 

I wonder how these different charges are calculated, and whether they can be challenged?  Local Authorities have fairly consistent salary scales etc across the whole of the UK, I believe, so the processing costs for adding a new house name or number should be roughly the same.

 

My understanding is that public bodies are only allowed to charge the actual cost of doing an essential task; they are not allowed to set a charge that makes them a "profit".  I remember going through all this with the public accounts committee, years ago, when questions were asked about the way internal charging operated between government departments, and the rules were very clear, and are the same as apply to the statutory responsibilities of local authorities.

 

The variation shown up in this thread is massive; from £24 to £145, and I simply refuse to accept that there isn't a bit of profiteering going on.  I know that our LA has been politically forced into making no Council Tax rises for four years; this year is the first increase for some time.  The consequences have been massive cuts in necessary spending, that is, without a shadow of doubt, building up a bow wave of future spending that has been growing year on year as essential services and facilities degrade. 

 

One thing they have been doing is looking to extract money from people in as many ways as possible, hence the £115.50 charge for a house name, or the snooping tactics to find half-built houses that they can levy Council Tax on.  I'd have rather they'd just put the Council Tax up a bit each year, as I've not been impressed by the political boasts made each year that they've held the increase at zero, when they've just been cutting corners with essential services that will end up costing tax payers far more in the long run.

[AliG]

I'd rather they cut pet projects than essential services.

 

There should be a list of council responsibilities and then they shouldn't be able to spend money on anything else. Many councils for example have CO2 coordinators. There is national policy on emissions. There is no need for every council to have an individual policy on this nor can they impact the national policy.

 

If there was a list of statutory responsibilities then every council could list how much they spend on each.

 

Extra spending would need a vote.

 

There wouldn't be a billion pound tram line in Edinburgh. That's for sure.

[jack]

If I remember correctly, our town council spends something like 10% of its annual budget on flowers, while pollution levels in the town centre have been at the extreme danger level for years without anything having been done about it.

[Jeremy Harris]

I suppose we're to blame, really, in that it seems many just don't bother to vote in local elections, and so we shouldn't be surprised if those who represent us, and ratify or create these daft decisions, get elected.  I remember Dave T (from Ebuild) being highly motivated by all the gross stupidity (and worse) in his local council, so he put his money where his mouth is and went out and stood for, and became, elected.  He's been in a constant running battle ever since, as far as I can gather, probably because he's in the habit of asking direct questions, about things just like this, and not accepting the excuses that are usually rolled out. 

 

I've been approached a few times to stand for election to our parish council (both of them!) and may well do so once we've sold the old house, as I'm getting increasingly concerned that I'm too eager to criticise when I could be spending the time trying to change things for the better.  Whether or not I could deal with the politics at county level I don't know, reading Dave T's blog makes me think it's a recipe for high(er) blood pressure..............

Edited February 28, 2017 by JSHarris
Very funny typo, "moth" when I meant "mouth"!

[AliG]

I too have thought about standing, but it seems that people mainly vote along party lines.

 

We often complain about NIMBYism here. I suspect that it is very hard to get elected in local politics without supporting local NIMBYs who I usually disagree with.

 

I once read an interview with Archie Norman. He said that he hoped he could enter politics to help things. But there was too much politics in politics and that people would stall what they knew were good ideas if you wouldn't support their ideas.

 

People seem to have a total misunderstanding of how local government is paid for. In Scotland they have just gone through an exercise of changing the ratio of band H to band A houses from 3x to 3.65x for council tax. So around a 20% increase in band H.

 

I hear constantly that people in band H may own a £1m+ house whereas band A may just be £70,000, yet they only pay 3x more council tax. People fundamentally don't understand that most council revenue, around 80% I believe, comes from the block grant from central government, so people who pay more income tax are already paying a considerably higher percentage of the costs of running local government.

 

It is a very difficult equation encompassing ability to pay and fairness versus paying for what you actually use. In reality the income tax system is based on ability to pay. People on low incomes simply couldn't afford to pay for all the services that they use. In a civilised society there has to be some realisation that it is fair that everyone pays their part of the burden and that is larger the more you earn. I don't think going back to a poll tax is workable. However, it gets on my nerves to think that people believe I am not paying a "fair" share as they don't seem to know how councils are funded. The other problem of this system of course is that voting power is concentrated amongst people who don't actually pay the costs of what they are voting for hence standing on a basis of sensible spending won't get you that far.

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by AliG

[Stones]

5 hours ago, Triassic said:

You need to contact the Street Naming team in your local Planning Department, it is they who add your house to the official database. We found that our address then appeared on the Post Office address database within a couple of days and in less than a month it started to appear on address lists of the like a Amazon, DVLA and the like.

 

This is exactly what I did.  Processed that day, live with Royal mail a couple of days later.  No charge.

[ProDave]

20 minutes ago, Stones said:

 

This is exactly what I did.  Processed that day, live with Royal mail a couple of days later.  No charge.

I presume Orkney have their own council?

 

Just checked and in fact it's £150 for Highland Council http://www.highland.gov.uk/info/180/planning_-_applications_warrants_and_certificates/172/street_names_and_house_numbers/2

 

[Jeremy Harris]

14 minutes ago, AliG said:

I too have thought about standing, but it seems that people mainly vote along party lines.

 

We often complain about NIMBYism here. I suspect that it is very hard to get elected in local politics without supporting local NIMBYs who I usually disagree with.

 

I once read an interview with Archie Norman. He said that he hoped he could enter politics to help things. But there was too much politics in politics and that people would stall what they knew were good ideas if you wouldn't support their ideas.

 

People seem to have a total misunderstanding of how local government is paid for. In Scotland they have just gone through an exercise of changing the ratio of band H to band A houses from 3x to 3.65x for council tax. So around a 20% increase in band H.

 

I hear constantly that people in band H may own a £1m+ house whereas band A may just be £70,000, yet they only pay 3x more council tax. People fundamentally don't understand that most council revenue, around 80% I believe, comes from the block grant from central government, so people who pay more income tax are already paying a considerably higher percentage of the costs of running local government.

 

It is a very difficult equation encompassing ability to pay and fairness versus paying for what you actually use. In reality the income tax system is based on ability to pay. People on low incomes simply couldn't afford to pay for all the services that they use. In a civilised society there has to be some realisation that it is fair that everyone pays their part of the burden and that is larger the more you earn. I don't think going back to a poll tax is workable. However, it gets on my nerves to think that people believe I am not paying a "fair" share as they don't seem to know how councils are funded. The other problem of this system of course is that voting power is concentrated amongst people who don't actually pay the costs of what they are voting for hence standing on a basis of sensible spending won't get you that far.

 

 

The failure to understand income taxation, direct and indirect, and the impact it has in terms of who pays the most for the same services as everyone else, is something that came home to me when I retired.  My gross pension is about 52% of my old salary, but my actual income after tax is around 75% of my old income!  The difference is not paying ERNIC and paying a lot less income tax.  If I take into account commuting costs, I'm almost earning the same retired as I was working, plus my pension is index linked, so has kept place with inflation, whereas my pay would have been frozen for the four years immediately after I retired.  I get a bigger pension from this November, too, as then I'll get the lower rate basic state pension as well.  At a guess that will nudge me up towards 80% or more of my pre-retirement income, perhaps a bit more allowing for indexation and the free benefits I get, like free prescriptions and eye tests, and a bus pass and railcard come November!

 

Dave T's blog is worth a read.  He's a few years older than me, yet seems to have ten times the energy when it comes to battling within local politics: https://dtremellen.com/  (some here will remember him as "joiner" on Ebuild, one of the moderators).

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I suppose we're to blame, really, in that it seems many just don't bother to vote in local elections, and so we shouldn't be surprised if those who represent us, and ratify or create these daft decisions, get elected.

Not sure Jeremy but I think that I have said before that if our vote actually allowed us to change things I am not certain we would still have it! Essentially the problems faced by our elected representatives are usually outputs of complex / chaotic soft systems. This usually means that, for most, change (often described as progress) becomes the art of ensuring that any unintended consequences are hidden from view at the outset and happen, as they undoubtedly will, elsewhere or at a time when you cannot blamed for it. Most of our representatives are not able to think things through to a sound conclusion because they are constrained by what Edward De Bono described as 'Unique Rightness' where you can only pick solutions from those you already know.

 

Our job should perhaps be to help people think things through in an open minded gestalt that uses deep understanding of the interactions (causes & influences) within the systems to identify root causes where interventions might most profitably be focused.

 

 

[ProDave]

So I was working in the house this afternoon and an Open Reach van pulls up. Out got the same chap I saw nearly 2 years ago when he gave me a drum of cable.  He had a look at the end of the cable in the house ready for a socket, and the other end coiled up on the grass verge right above their trunk cable. That's what I like, he said, a nice easy straightforward job. He assured me someone will be here on the 22nd to dig the hole, connect the end under the verge and connect the socket in the house.

 

It's all going too well so far.

 

P.S I forgot to say, I had to pay a £65 connection charge for the new line. I have not paid anything to OR. The BT operative I dealt with said it's normally £130 connection charge and his system has let him discount that. Apparently some days it lets them discount it to £0 but not on the day I phoned. Compared to the cost of getting water and electricity connected I am not grumbling at £65
 

[ProDave]

Well I thought it was going too well.

 

This morning I had a text message saying the "delay management" team would phone me in a few minuted.  I waited and no call.

 

When I got home, SWMBO said she had a call that she ignored because she wasn't expecting so she ignored it (so they texted my phone to say they were going to call, then made the call to a different number. This is a communications establishment.)  They then sent a message to her phone saying there was a delay until WB 27th March.

 

I sent an email with the reference they provided to the email they provided delay.management@bt.com asking what was the issue. That bounced back immediately "this email is no longer in use"

 

I then spent the best part of an hour to find out what was going on. Half of that was trying to get to speak to the right person, including I am sure many people from foreign places. Eventually I got through to a lady in Aberdeen who finally I could understand and tried very hard to help me.

 

Even then she could not give me the full story. After putting me on hold to find the right person, that person would not talk to me. So the best I have is on 27th March someone from "network solutions" will visit to see what needs to be one. Then after they have solved the network there is then some routing work then finally the collection.

 

Nobody seems able to tell me the whole story. At the moment my best guess is they have suddenly realised there are no more spare pairs in the existing cable to our road, so they have to do some network upgrading? but that is pure speculation.

 

All highly annoying a I now have no idea how long it is all going to take.

[Stones]

My connection was likewise delayed. I learned long ago with BT that the only way to get a resolution is to email the Chief Executive. I'll PM you his email tomorrow. All complaints sent to him get dealt with by a UK based executive complaints team. They are quick to acknowledge, quick to make first contact and certainly keep you updated if there isn't an immediate or quick resolution possible.

[ProDave]

Thanks, that would be most appreciated.