CC45 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Hi, Just battening the service void in our timber frame - going horizontally to minimise cold bridging, want to fix a batten at the correct height so that I can screw the elec boxes into the batten - to the underside of the batten (upstairs) and top of the batten (downstairs) - so the cable run doesnt involve too much drilling of holes. I know they are meant to be 450mm from finished floor height and I assumed this was to the underside of the socket but just to check I measured sockets in a new build earlier - they were 450 to the top of the sockets - so which is it? I'm leaning towards making it 450mm to the bottom of the sockets. The safe option. Also read that tbey should be min 350mm from corners - true? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Just a quick question, if you're using horizontal battens for the service void, how are you going to run the cables in safe zones? It can be done, but it's more usual to run service void battens vertically, as it makes things a fair bit easier and allows the cables to be run vertically without obstructions. Edited to add: I've deleted the Part M reference and quote, as it referred to an out-of date requirement. There is no requirement for switch and outlet heights now, see new post below. Edited February 25, 2017 by JSHarris typo "too" when I meant "to". Edited again because of changes in Part M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Not sure this is how I would go about it. Why are you fixing the boxes to the batten I would personally have a lower batten and a higher batten with a service void between, you then use a back box designed to grip on the plasterboard. If you draw your wire runs on the wall before you should be able to avoid any drilling. Edited February 25, 2017 by Russell griffiths Spell checker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Just an update, as my copy of Part M dates from the start of our build and there is now a new edition. The new edition completely removes the electrical outlet and switch height requirements, believe it or not. There was a consultation document released in 2014 stating that this section (section 8) was to be deleted, and in the 2015 edition of Part M it's not there. I've double checked to see if they've moved it into Part P, but Part P still says refer to Part M. So, as I understand it, the old 450mm and 1200mm guidance no longer applies and you can put switches and outlets where you like. If you want to check then this is the consultation doc referring to the intention to delete this requirement: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/354091/02__140731__HSR_Supporting_Doc1__Access.pdf which states: Quote The following sections of guidance in Approved Document M ‘Access to and use of buildings’ have been deleted: Section 6: Means of access to and into the dwelling Section 7: Circulation within the entrance storey of the dwelling Section 8: Accessible switches and sockets in the dwelling Section 8: Accessible switches and sockets in the dwelling Section 9: Passenger lifts and common stairs in blocks of flats Section 10: WC provision in the entrance storey of the dwelling And the new Part M is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/540330/BR_PDF_AD_M1_2015_with_2016_amendments_V3.pdf Sometimes it's hard to keep up when things like this happen....................... Edited February 25, 2017 by JSHarris The above was incorrect and I've edited it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Well spotted Jeremy BUT for those of us that started before Oct 2015 we still have to abide by the 2004 edition ( with amendments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Just an update, as my copy of Part M dates from the start of our build and there is now a new edition. The new edition completely removes the electrical outlet and switch height requirements, believe it or not. There was a consultation document released in 2014 stating that this section (section 8) was to be deleted, and in the 2015 edition of Part M it's not there. I've double checked to see if they've moved it into Part P, but Part P still says refer to Part M. So, as I understand it, the old 450mm and 1200mm guidance no longer applies and you can put switches and outlets where you like. If you want to check then this is the consultation doc referring to the intention to delete this requirement: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/354091/02__140731__HSR_Supporting_Doc1__Access.pdf which states: And the new Part M is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/540330/BR_PDF_AD_M1_2015_with_2016_amendments_V3.pdf Sometimes it's hard to keep up when things like this happen....................... That's good news it may seem like a minor issue but I was actually hating the thought of having sockets half way up my walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 17 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Just an update, as my copy of Part M dates from the start of our build and there is now a new edition. The new edition completely removes the electrical outlet and switch height requirements, believe it or not. There was a consultation document released in 2014 stating that this section (section 8) was to be deleted, and in the 2015 edition of Part M it's not there. I've double checked to see if they've moved it into Part P, but Part P still says refer to Part M. Are you sure it hasn't just moved into a new section ? Section 1.18 described the placement of switches and controls between 450mm and 1200mm. I can't see why this wouldn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: Are you sure it hasn't just moved into a new section ? Section 1.18 described the placement of switches and controls between 450mm and 1200mm. I can't see why this wouldn't apply. You're right, I'd missed that they had relocated it, seduced by the statement in the other document that they had deleted it! Sometimes the people that write these things could try a bit harder to say something like "relocated to Section 1.18" rather than deleted................ Anyway, it looks the same as the old section 8 as far as I can see: Quote To assist people who have reduced reach, services and controls should comply with all of the following. a. Switches and sockets, including door bells, entry phones, light switches, power sockets, TV aerials and telephone jacks, serving habitable rooms throughout the dwelling have their centre line 450-1200mm above floor level, as shown in Diagram 1.5. b. Consumer units are mounted so that the switches are 1350-1450mm above floor level. Which is clearer, except that diagram 1.5 seems to be the same as the old diagram 29, with lines that indicate the bottom and top, rather then the centre line. I've edited the original post, but with strike through for anyone who decides to take me to task (yet again) over making an error, so what I originally wrote is still there to be argued over................... Edited February 25, 2017 by JSHarris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Fit the battens at 450mm. Screw the back boxes onto the battens and run the c ables horizontally clipped to the battens. That puts the cables in a safe zone. If you have the battens above the socket, you would have to clip the cables underneath the batten to stay in safe zones, altogether much more fiddly. P.S it's only 400mm in Scotland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Have you got a pic of this dave. If you are fitting the boxes to the batten how is the plasterboard going on, or is this just a counter batten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Is there not done confusion here where you are just fixing horizontal battens to your frame and others are assuming you fixing 2 layers of battens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC45 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 Just one layer of battens, where sockets etc go I will prob put some vertical battens to allow cables to run vertically. Wires will run vertically or horizontally from all points. I'm not going to use the plasterboard ones - hate the feel / noise they make - feels cheap, I will stick to the metal ones. Is there any guidance about distance from corners? Thanks for the various observations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I agree about plasterboard back boxes, they always seem to feel less than solid. I used deep steel boxes, spaced out with ply backing boards to get them at the right depth inside the plasterboard cut out. There's nothing I can see about the distance from corners, and I can't recall seeing anything about this is any version of part M I've read. I would hazard a guess that we may well have outlets around 350mm, maybe less, from a corner in one or two places, and it wasn't picked up, despite the fact that Part M compliance was about the only thing our completion inspection thoroughly checked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC45 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 20 minutes ago, JSHarris said: I agree about plasterboard back boxes, they always seem to feel less than solid. I used deep steel boxes, spaced out with ply backing boards to get them at the right depth inside the plasterboard cut out. There's nothing I can see about the distance from corners, and I can't recall seeing anything about this is any version of part M I've read. I would hazard a guess that we may well have outlets around 350mm, maybe less, from a corner in one or two places, and it wasn't picked up, despite the fact that Part M compliance was about the only thing our completion inspection thoroughly checked. Going to do the same - just feels solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Out of interest has anyone used these? http://www.cooperbline.co.uk/telescopic-box-mount.php they are primarily used in metal stud but you can use them on timber studs. Seems like a neat solution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC45 Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 How much are they? I'm going to use timber on the basis of cost + I have a lot of suitable offcuts that I could use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Re plasterboard boxes, if you are going to use them, use Appleby. They are the only make I trust not to disintegrate or jam. You can get metal plasterboard back boxes, TLC sell them, but they can be a bit of a PITA to fit. You are not supposed to fit "general purpose" sockets less than 300mm from a corner. Note that word "general purpose" My take is , providing you have enough "general purpose" sockets to meet the regs, and you have a need for one right in a corner, then fit it. If your building inspector is a jobsworth and complains, put a label on it "for tv only" and it's no longer "general purpose" This is the same rule that lets you put sockets high up for a wall mounted tv, as it's not "general purpose" You only need something like 4 "general purpose" sockets in most rooms so it's easy to get enough that do meet the accessibilty rules. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 1 hour ago, CC45 said: How much are they? I'm going to use timber on the basis of cost + I have a lot of suitable offcuts that I could use. £1.50 ish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) Sitting here talking to the father in law (retired electrician) and he said they used to fit all metal boxes on a batten between studs and that the plasterboard boxes where only used to add additional sockets when you couldn't get behind the board. You live and learn. Edited February 26, 2017 by Russell griffiths Forgot something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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