Advanced Framing Techniques

[PeterTweeter]

Hi, there

I've been spending a while getting myself up to speed on framing techniques for the 21st century.

My previous experience was based on publications from the British Columbria Timber Frame Housing Group, dated mid 70's!

Clearly, a lot has changed & I've been reading up on the moves to AFT in North America.

I see the a basic item (2x6 stud @600crs) has been adopted here as a standard, but I'm wondering if any of the other items have made an appearance over here?

These include: the elimination of jack studs & cripples; 2 stud (California) corners; single top plate; rim joists doubling for headers; etc. All of this is in order to reduce cald bridging & increase insulation.

Has anyone out there come across these? Either from experience or knowledge.

Cheers, Peter

[Russell griffiths]

I think you will find the whole stick building situation nearly non existent in the uk. I stick built my last place but over here most things are built off site in panel form. 

So the whole California corner stuff just doesn’t come in to play. 

 

I think some of our timberframe builders are miles ahead of the yanks, look at the builders over here doing the double stud walls. 

[PeterTweeter]

Russell

I'm afraid I can't agree with your assessment - just a walk away from us, a developer is throwing up an estate - part bricks & mortar & some TF. From what I can see the framing is just like we erected in the mid 70's. The only difference I can see are the more sophisticated membranes & sealing tapes, which is what you'd expect on the science front.

As for double stud walls - wasn't John Larsen advocating a similar approach in Ontario in the 80's. MBC were a bit late in the game.

That said, I notice you're based in Gloucestershire, so maybe you could direct me to a reliable source of timber in our area. In addition, I've also noticed your input in regard to metal roofing.

This is the route I'm taking but finding an installer hard to locate - let alone deciding on the system. How did you find this & making the decisions?

Peter

[jamieled]

Yeah I reckon it might depend where you live. Stick building is definitely still commonplace up by us (north Scot).

 

Pre fab timber frame companies are good at marketing whereas a stick framing joiner doesn't need to bother. Hence it tends to influence the perception of timber kits being the only way.

[Gus Potter]

Much depends on your circumstances and what you have cover wise to fabricate the panels on site for example.

 

I have a job that comprises a 210m sq bungalow to go up this summer just south of Glasgow, warrant all approved etc. The client has a shed next to the new house. The contactor is going to stick build the panels in the shed. I did a set of panel drawings / nailing schedule for the contractor to follow. The economics seem to stack up for the client.

 

The timber frame is 145 x 45 C24 for the external panels. 95 x 45 C24 for the internal panels, some of which are racking (shear) walls so they are sheeted on one side for building stability. The roof is formed in prefabricated timber trusses with some cut roof infill.

 

The ceiling heights are 2.9m and the house is in a windy spot hence the use of the 145 deep C24 timber for the whole structural frame. This C24 throughout is partly to avoid anyone mixing up timber grades accidentally.

 

In Scotland we have been building TF for a good while.. both stick and prefabricated. In recent decades this has become more mainstream in the southern part of the UK.

 

There are many advantages to stick building so don't rule this out as an option to look at. Here are just a few examples:

 

1/ You can buy the timber on account at a merchants, no kit deposit to fork out for up front or worries about the TF fabricator going bust.

2/ You can just build the panels you really need for structural stability, stand them up and get the roof on.

3/ It's easier to change your mind as you go.. maybe move a non load bearing wall.. it's your frame!

4/ You can shop about for all the insulation, metal fixings and so on.

5/ If the brickie has not got the found true / square then you can often adjust the panels as you make them on site.. that can be a real bonus as it can take a lot of the heat out of a potential nasty argument over who is to blame.

6/ You can be more sure of the quality and accuracy of the nailing and so on as you can examine the panels before the vapour membrane say is stapled on.

7/ If using say local trades folk it gives them a good run of work, in some ways they can come and go in terms of flexibility, wet days make panels, dry days put them up, that can lead to a saving.

[PeterTweeter]

Gus

Make no mistake, for all the reasons you make, I will be building this myself, tho 'her indoors' keeps saying I/we are not 20 somethings anymore!

I'm well aware of the long standing scottish association with TH - the house we built in the mid70's was a package supplied by Celtic Homes, based in Duns.

You, and others, may know their current incarnation - Fleming Homes.

My real interest is taking up some /all of these new ideas in reducing timber usage & boosting insulation

[Russell griffiths]

@PeterTweeter with most frames over here apart from the double stud stuff you will end up having to install extra insulation over the studs for the cold bridges and also to achieve the required u value, so is there much point in trying to save a bit of timber if you need to do this, I can understand trying to remove a stack of 6 studs all together holding up a beam or something. 

 

 

[SimonD]

On 10/04/2021 at 20:41, PeterTweeter said:

Hi, there

I've been spending a while getting myself up to speed on framing techniques for the 21st century.

My previous experience was based on publications from the British Columbria Timber Frame Housing Group, dated mid 70's!

Clearly, a lot has changed & I've been reading up on the moves to AFT in North America.

I see the a basic item (2x6 stud @600crs) has been adopted here as a standard, but I'm wondering if any of the other items have made an appearance over here?

These include: the elimination of jack studs & cripples; 2 stud (California) corners; single top plate; rim joists doubling for headers; etc. All of this is in order to reduce cald bridging & increase insulation.

Has anyone out there come across these? Either from experience or knowledge.

Cheers, Peter

 I have some recent experience and knowledge with this. For the most part you'll find the timber frames designed with cripples and jacks as per standard framing convention. The 'California,' 2 stud corner is now a standard detail. Yes, you can of course start removing jacks and cripples, but it may not always be the most helpful thing to do. You'll have to know that your windows can be side fixed with no support below to remove cripples and in some case, if you have a large span, your removal of jacks for header hangers will necessitate double kingstuds, sometimes even triple, so you lose a couple of studs in that arrangement, but again it depends on the loads. If your designer is thinking ahead, you can design openings to fit within the stud spacing, which makes things easier and more efficient. With respect to your top plates, if your rafters are aligned with the studs and the frame is stacked, there's no need to double up your top plates. I've seen so many over here that are doubled up, even when there's no need, so I think mostly it's just habit.

 

As for using 2x6 at 600cc you'll find that the goto wall is insulated between studs with some internal insulation to reduce cold bridging. If you really want good thermal performance, then filling and wrapping the frame externally with insulation is more sensible, like they do with wood fibre, and/or use a double wall, which is fairly common in the rest of Europe.

 

I see you're in South Glos. That's not too far north of me. I found it difficult to get supplies of 38 x 140 cls as no merchants around here carried them, other than B & Q but they're only 2.4m long and stock is erratic. One merhant in south Wales that did hold some stock, told me not to bother with what they had as it was only fit for kindling. So I had to order mine by the full pallet, but then at least I knew it was decent quality as it was delivered by the merchant straight from the supplier. I can give you details of a good merchant depending on where you're based, if you like (prices were very good too). With all the local suppliers of 47 x 150 carcassing timber, many store it so badly, I wouldn't want to frame my walls with it.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that around here, many merchants supply osb sheathing in 8 x 4 sheets, not 2400 x 1200mm (as they do osb floor boards). In my case, the prices I got were so good I framed my house in imperial rather than metric instead of going to the bother of ordering in the metric sheets.

[PeterTweeter]

Simon - thanks for that, you make some good points. I'm doing the design myself so I'm beginning to get to grips with the issues of adequate support. Interesting point about window fixing, we shall see!

I am in awe of you, having seen shots of your roof & your videos! I'm fully expecting to have to go down the DIY route for our roof - I note your choice of Greencoat.

Ideally, we would like zinc but will probably go down the "look-a-like" route for cost/contractor reasons.

Re. your comments about 140cls - I was speaking to Griggs Timber yesterday & was told that the US are hoovering up European supplies, at over the odds, cos Canada can't meet demand.

Your point re sheathing - always a bugger when you're doing a bit of work & realised that it's an imperial sheet - had that trouble with the buffalo board to my workshop!

[tonyshouse]

I gave up cripples, use single header beams over windows or double for wider openings replacing the outer one(s) with insulation , wood sheet inside additional insulation outside 

[DragsterDriver]

On 23/04/2021 at 10:10, SimonD said:

 I have some recent experience and knowledge with this. For the most part you'll find the timber frames designed with cripples and jacks as per standard framing convention. The 'California,' 2 stud corner is now a standard detail. Yes, you can of course start removing jacks and cripples, but it may not always be the most helpful thing to do. You'll have to know that your windows can be side fixed with no support below to remove cripples and in some case, if you have a large span, your removal of jacks for header hangers will necessitate double kingstuds, sometimes even triple, so you lose a couple of studs in that arrangement, but again it depends on the loads. If your designer is thinking ahead, you can design openings to fit within the stud spacing, which makes things easier and more efficient. With respect to your top plates, if your rafters are aligned with the studs and the frame is stacked, there's no need to double up your top plates. I've seen so many over here that are doubled up, even when there's no need, so I think mostly it's just habit.

 

As for using 2x6 at 600cc you'll find that the goto wall is insulated between studs with some internal insulation to reduce cold bridging. If you really want good thermal performance, then filling and wrapping the frame externally with insulation is more sensible, like they do with wood fibre, and/or use a double wall, which is fairly common in the rest of Europe.

 

I see you're in South Glos. That's not too far north of me. I found it difficult to get supplies of 38 x 140 cls as no merchants around here carried them, other than B & Q but they're only 2.4m long and stock is erratic. One merhant in south Wales that did hold some stock, told me not to bother with what they had as it was only fit for kindling. So I had to order mine by the full pallet, but then at least I knew it was decent quality as it was delivered by the merchant straight from the supplier. I can give you details of a good merchant depending on where you're based, if you like (prices were very good too). With all the local suppliers of 47 x 150 carcassing timber, many store it so badly, I wouldn't want to frame my walls with it.

 

The other thing to keep in mind is that around here, many merchants supply osb sheathing in 8 x 4 sheets, not 2400 x 1200mm (as they do osb floor boards). In my case, the prices I got were so good I framed my house in imperial rather than metric instead of going to the bother of ordering in the metric sheets.

Morning!

 

was the cls vac vac treated or anything similar?

 

thanks  

[JamesP]

@PeterTweeter I stick built my new build as it was feasible with my limited experience, a pleasure todo though a little niche. I cannot imagine large house building companies doing the same. Takes along time to be water tight. Also fitted a Tata Steel roof. Work in progress. 

 

[DragsterDriver]

31 minutes ago, JamesP said:

@PeterTweeter I stick built my new build as it was feasible with my limited experience, a pleasure todo though a little niche. I cannot imagine large house building companies doing the same. Takes along time to be water tight. Also fitted a Tata Steel roof. Work in progress. 

 

That looks amazing!

[SimonD]

On 25/04/2021 at 11:15, JamesP said:

@PeterTweeter I stick built my new build as it was feasible with my limited experience, a pleasure todo though a little niche. I cannot imagine large house building companies doing the same. Takes along time to be water tight. Also fitted a Tata Steel roof. Work in progress. 

 

 

Nice, I bet that was fun! I loved the framing part of my house.

[SimonD]

On 25/04/2021 at 08:12, DragsterDriver said:

Morning!

 

was the cls vac vac treated or anything similar?

 

thanks  

 

Normally the cls comes untreated but I asked for it treated so my timber merchant sent the whole lot off to get treated before devliery. I think a lot of merchants will supply to you treated or untreated.

[SimonD]

On 24/04/2021 at 15:08, PeterTweeter said:

Simon - thanks for that, you make some good points. I'm doing the design myself so I'm beginning to get to grips with the issues of adequate support. Interesting point about window fixing, we shall see!

I am in awe of you, having seen shots of your roof & your videos! I'm fully expecting to have to go down the DIY route for our roof - I note your choice of Greencoat.

Ideally, we would like zinc but will probably go down the "look-a-like" route for cost/contractor reasons.

Re. your comments about 140cls - I was speaking to Griggs Timber yesterday & was told that the US are hoovering up European supplies, at over the odds, cos Canada can't meet demand.

Your point re sheathing - always a bugger when you're doing a bit of work & realised that it's an imperial sheet - had that trouble with the buffalo board to my workshop!

 

Thanks Peter. Is that still the case with cls, blimey. It was an issue when I bought all my cls for partition walls and I bought the last stock from my timber merchants. That was back in December.

 

[PeterTweeter]

Simon. If you're happy to share - I'd appreciate a steer to the local timber suppliers.

 

James. Also kudos! I shall frame those images because the look youv'e achieved is exactly what is in my mind (& on scraps of paper!)

When my wife asks "why are you/we doing this?" - I'll point to your example!

On a serious note - glazing is on my mind, at the minute - yours look the business, can I ask the manufacturer/supplier/fitter?

 

WRT roofing - not that I've delved too deep, but when we were first talking about this project we came across Colorcoat Urban. It seemed the dogs danglies but I've gotten the impression from other buildhubbers ( is that the collective noun?) - that Tata are/were none too reliable.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards these candidates - FalZip; VieoZinc & Greencoat (as Simon has used).

 

WRT boys toys - James, I note your 'workshop space' - I need to review my kit in order to proceed. I have an older 10in Axminster compound saw (w. dodgy detents, so accurate crosscuts are an issue); a Makita track saw; a 10in  Dewalt radial arm saw & a very old 8in B&D circular saw. You may mock, but she has served me very well since 1969 & many house builds/refurbs/roof framing projects, so she won't be retired - merely supplemented with something, maybe. The Dewalt compound saw in the photo - any thoughts? Also the chunky table saw - I've never been able to justify the need (mainly space).

So, my thoughts are: a better/bigger compound saw - deeper cuts? & a 12in circular saw - also deeper cuts. Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Many thanks.

[Kevin J]

Hi PeterThere is an Open Day on Saturday 1st May at the NSBRC Swindon https://www.nsbrc.co.uk/ask-an-expert-open-day/ Recommend you Register in advance.

NSBRC is a good day out for all self builders see their website for opening times in the event you can't make the weekend

 

 

 

[SimonD]

8 hours ago, PeterTweeter said:

Simon. If you're happy to share - I'd appreciate a steer to the local timber suppliers.

 

Of course, Peter. I used Robbins Timber in Bristol for most of my timber supplies. For my Glulam beams it was Buckland Timber (I needed bespoke curved and straight beams).

 

9 hours ago, PeterTweeter said:

..Colorcoat Urban. It seemed the dogs danglies but I've gotten the impression from other buildhubbers ( is that the collective noun?) - that Tata are/were none too reliable.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards these candidates - FalZip; VieoZinc & Greencoat (as Simon has used).

 

I actually tried to use Colorcoat Urban. I found that both tech support and sales were so inadequate, that, as you know, I went elsewhere. I'm now very glad I did. There's no way the Tata proposition would have cut the mustard for our project.

 

@Kevin J will no doubt hate me for saying this ?? but I didn't go with Metal Solutions either, even though I did speak to them about my project - they were also kind enough to test whether their snaplock product would work for my roof (sadly it didn't due to curve radius). I used The Metal Roofing Company which supplies the Lindab Greencoat PLX, which is basically rebadged SSAB Greencoat. This, however, is old school either hire in a roofing contractor, who they'll put you in touch with, or DIY from coils.

 

9 hours ago, PeterTweeter said:

So, my thoughts are: a better/bigger compound saw - deeper cuts? & a 12in circular saw - also deeper cuts. Any other thoughts/suggestions?

 

Re toys, I did my entire frame using a Festool HK85 together with a cross cut rail (attaches to saw for all manner of mitres up to 60 degrees) and 2 1400mm rails. I don't think I'll ever go to using chops saws or table saws again as I can just take the tools to the materials and cut everything on the pack..or the floor..or wherever it's lying. I did also use a pheumatic framing nailer, positive placement nailer, hammer, spirit level, and a cheap Erbauer impact driver. Oh, and a tape measure ? Probably most underrated of the toys is my Nilfisk M class extractor which is pretty much permanently attached to my saw - OMG is that one of the best buys I made. That was pretty much it for that part of the build.

[PeterTweeter]

Kevin

Thanks for the info. As a matter of fact, it was @ the NSBRC Swindon that we saw the Tata product. We also made contact with Fleming & found out that our 1st build was supplied by Celtic Homes - an early incarnation of Fleming.

Simon

I've just fallen off my chair - Festool, indeed! Maybe I could slip that past my paymaster! Curious about the "cross cut rail" - must investigate. I'm glad it's not just me with an Erbauer impact driver. Sadly, mine has just died on me - not the batteries, but the switch. Haven't bothered to search for a new one - just replaced it with an Einfell. Right, just a brand tart!

Tho I have decided to go down the multi tool/single battery route & added a combi drill & a multitool. TS were doing a cracking deal - now I've got spare chargers coming out of everywhere.

I have to say that a multitool is one of the best tools I've ever owned. It makes short work of the job of cutting out a hole in old lath & plaster, for a new socket box. Buzzing away with two of the blades to ease away the plaster & then the underlying laths; slip in a deep drylining box & we're done!

Cheers

[PeterTweeter]

Simon

Call that a saw! This is a saw -

[JamesP]

10 hours ago, PeterTweeter said:

James. Also kudos! I shall frame those images because the look youv'e achieved is exactly what is in my mind (& on scraps of paper!)

When my wife asks "why are you/we doing this?" - I'll point to your example!

On a serious note - glazing is on my mind, at the minute - yours look the business, can I ask the manufacturer/supplier/fitter?

 

WRT boys toys - James, I note your 'workshop space' - I need to review my kit in order to proceed. I have an older 10in Axminster compound saw (w. dodgy detents, so accurate crosscuts are an issue); a Makita track saw; a 10in  Dewalt radial arm saw & a very old 8in B&D circular saw. You may mock, but she has served me very well since 1969 & many house builds/refurbs/roof framing projects, so she won't be retired - merely supplemented with something, maybe. The Dewalt compound saw in the photo - any thoughts? Also the chunky table saw - I've never been able to justify the need (mainly space).

So, my thoughts are: a better/bigger compound saw - deeper cuts? & a 12in circular saw - also deeper cuts. Any other thoughts/suggestions?

Many thanks.

Hi @PeterTweeter

 

Glazing we used Internorm for the slider and Kastrup for all other doors and outward opening top hung windows. All triple glazed, timber and aluclad. Velux 3G roof lights.The fitters were awful and a lot of the glazing was replaced because of roller marks. PM me if you want the suppliers name.

 

Tools were Dewalt DWS780 Mitre saw, 305mm.  Makita 18V power tools, impact driver, drill, grinder, jigsaw, multi tool and the best one the DHS680 circular saw, just brilliant.

Also purchased a Senco DS5525 for fixing OSB and plasterboard. Great tool just a bit too heavy. Whole building just screws except nailing strip on metal roof.

 Finally a table saw, ancient but with sharpened blades has been really useful for the Cedar cladding. All tools faultless.

 

Tata was straightforward for me though many others had difficult communications with them. At the time the product was about £25 / sqm which suited our budget. Over 300sqm required.

 

The workshop became the kitchen - dining.

 

 

 

[SimonD]

15 hours ago, JamesP said:

 

Is that a plywood finish ceiling? If it is, did you have to use an intumescent treatment?

[JamesP]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

 

Is that a plywood finish ceiling? If it is, did you have to use an intumescent treatment?

Yes, Birch Ply and  intumescent coating for Building Control.

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, JamesP said:

Yes, Birch Ply and  intumescent coating for Building Control.

Ah cool. So now I'm itching to ask how you did the curved section? It's very nicely done. I've got curved ceilings which are to be finished with Birch ply too where the curve is created by the glulam beams.