Flat roof considerations: Safety, Rain and Shine

[markc]

If you provide a fall arrest or restraint anchor point then it must be tested, marked and regularly inspected. Restraint is much simpler to design and install as the test load is much lower. Inspection is once a year and would take 10 minutes.

If you provide a harness and land yard that prevents someone going over the edge then you have covered yourself. 
the portable units are heavy and must be inspected before each use, and if left in place add a large localised load to the roof usually causing it to deflect (permanently).

how often will the skylights be cleaned? … be honest here.  Roofers and window cleaners are used to going onto flat roofs etc. And I guarantee they will not use the anchor point, either fixed or portable.

[saveasteading]

11 hours ago, puntloos said:

I assume your question is rhetorical but I'd trust the affixed-to-the-roof one more

Not really rhetorical.  I would trust the 'fixed' one least, because  I have no idea if it is fixed well , or at all. Could be siliconed on, or bolted to a skinny bit of wood.

I would want to see a load test certificate or fix my own.

 

To clean the outside of the skylight you need to provide safe access. This can be by an opening skylight or hatch or by safe climbing.

If a ladder or tower is anticipated then I would also want tying points at the best point of access.

Roof lights do get dirty of course, but also blasted by heavy rain. So for daylight they will usually be clean enough, especially if on a decent slope.. For a clear view of the sky perhaps not.

 

The Scottish Standards say this 

1. both faces of a window and rooflight in a building are capable of being cleaned such that there will not be a threat to the cleaner from a fall resulting in severe injury

2. a safe and secure means of access is provided to a roof, 

 

[saveasteading]

5 hours ago, markc said:

Restraint is much simpler to design and install as the test load is much lower. Inspection is once a year and would take 10 minutes.

To do the test requires the tester to go on the roof. Ten minutes may become an hour.

I wonder if they use the anchor that they are there to test...I just don't know so someone tell me please.

 

Harness and lanyard have to be inspected too and I think disposed of at 'use by' date. I think this is 3 years assuming you haven't been sold one that has been sitting around.

[markc]

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

To do the test requires the tester to go on the roof. Ten minutes may become an hour.

I wonder if they use the anchor that they are there to test...I just don't know so someone tell me please.

 

Harness and lanyard have to be inspected too and I think disposed of at 'use by' date. I think this is 3 years assuming you haven't been sold one that has been sitting around.

As a test engineer you get certain ‘free passes’ as you are not there doing work using the equipment as a safeguard. If there was an attachment point I would use it anyway while inspecting.

the 3 year harness ‘rule’ is still banded around but that is not written in stone for all applications. Painter and decorator would have a contaminated harness and the chemical attack could weaken so a timely disposal is recommended.

a harness which is clean, dry and in good order can be used for many years.

harness inspection is nothing more than a visual looking for cuts, abrasions or pulled stitching etc., literally 10 minutes - the paperwork takes longer.

too many scare tactics around inspection and testing requirements.

your safe system of work could be supervision and verbal warning that the person is getting too close to the edge.

Look at the work being done, what could go wrong, likely hood of it happening, what measures can be taken to reduce the risk … often the additional measures are more of a risk than the task itself so doing nothing is the safest option.

[saveasteading]

6 minutes ago, markc said:

safe system of work could be supervision and verbal warning that the person is getting too close to the edge

My preferred method as a manager doing very specific one-off inspections.   Take up another person whose job is ONLY to watch and warn against shuffling backwards over the edge etc. Needs a trusted and alert person though...no getting bored and looking away, or too interested and distracted.

 

But first find a safe way up.

Once did a job for a huge international company who had a permanent safety inspector watching us.

We were once hoisting a ladder up, to tie to a fixing at the eaves. One man climbing the ladder with a rope, another holding the bottom  and he stopped us. You can't do that, the ladder isn't tied. 

This sort of thing gives safety specialists a bad name and causes problems.

The ladder was somehow tied in place the next morning, perhaps a cherry picker was hired for 5 minutes, and immediately taken away.

 

My suspicion is that £20 would have resolved the situation, but we wouldn't do that.

[ETC]

Seems like a lot of energy spent on this thread. Simple answer - remove the access to the roof! Why on earth would you you need access anyway? If you need to to maintain it (once a year) get a specialist cleaner in with a cherry picker.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

lot of energy spent on this thread.

I have learnt from it, even though I know a fair bit already. Indulge us nerds please.

[Dave Jones]

wouldn't put my life on the single screw into batten holding that ridge tile down

 

[pdf27]

8 hours ago, puntloos said:

Ah, but the 'snag' then is that the roof itself needs to be able to catch a 100kg weight bouncing off the roof (if I read this site correctly).

Can normal roofs hold that from one anchor point? Or would the SE need to design that special?

That's fall arrest only. If you're going for fall restraint (i.e. a rope that stops them reaching the edge), it isn't going to be required.

 

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

If you end up hanging by the waist on a rope, or even in a proper harness (stops the artery in the crutch I think) , you will not survive long, and need to be got down. Therefore needs access equipment on the ground too.

Yep. Fall arrest needs a rescue plan in place, etc. - bad news all round and a lot of extra work, because being left hanging there is lethally dangerous. Fall restraint is much simpler though and should be adequate for this roof.

 

7 hours ago, puntloos said:

I'd be inclined to agree this is not great.. but if I understand @pdf27correctly, the reqs require a house to have some type of fixing point?

I think we may be talking cross-purposes here. I've been responding to the question "what would be required for safe access on this roof", not "what do building regulations require for such a roof". The simplest answer is either that you propose not to clean the skylights or that you propose to employ a company who will clean it according to their own safe system of work. That doesn't require you to provide anything at all since neither requires fall arrest or restraint equipment.

 

26 minutes ago, markc said:

If you provide a fall arrest or restraint anchor point then it must be tested, marked and regularly inspected. Restraint is much simpler to design and install as the test load is much lower. Inspection is once a year and would take 10 minutes.

If you provide a harness and land yard that prevents someone going over the edge then you have covered yourself.

Not 100% sure on whether you're covered - I'm an engineer not a lawyer but would be nervous about where the liability lies if you provide equipment that later proves to be defective or is misused because you didn't also provide training.

[puntloos]

I'm looking at this from a super pragmatic point of view, which is that I certainly prefer not to go through the hassle of provisioning a fixing point especially because the cleaner might not trust it anyway. 

 

But I'm still not 100% clear under what circumstances I HAVE to provide an anchor point. Which detail would push me from "don't have to" to "have to"?

 

Crucial set of steps/questions: 

 

- Do my skylights need cleaning at all?

• They are flat, horizontal, I can perhaps apply self-cleaning coating
• Perhaps I can still angle them slightly? Would that suffice? 
• I imagine I'd still have to clean, at least once a year.

- If there is no way to access the roof, can cleaners still get to the two skylights anyway?

• My garden room has a flat roof, but might not look too kindly on having people (and pointy ladder legs) stand on it.
• From the ground, the ridge height is 8.2m but given that it's a crown roof it's a little harder than if the house were a box
• It's okay if it is hard-ish and I'd have to pay a premium to the cleaner because of the difficult access but I don't want a situation where they are flat out refusing

- If none of my roof windows open far enough to let a human through, it's fine to leave out the fixing point? 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Can't you have skylights are reversible that you can clean from the inside?

[ETC]

All this to clean a roof light?

 

Jeez - dump the roof light and put in a light bulb!

[puntloos]

On 13/10/2021 at 19:12, ETC said:

All this to clean a roof light?

 

Jeez - dump the roof light and put in a light bulb!

The main thing I can't work out is if the main skylight above a void can be cleaned without any 'easy' roof access.

 

Are you saying a specialist can access my skylight 'reasonably easy' perhaps by standing on the flat garden room roof (top right corner)? Of course I understand it will cost more but that's fine, within reason, to do once or twice a year...

 

 

[saveasteading]

One last thing from me on this.

That skylight is huge.

Daylight from a skylight is about 3 x that from a window, so it doesn't need that size if daylight is the reason

Cost: what size is that? It is a huge piece of glass which would have to be rather special for safety and strength for wind and snow..

As one piece glass in  a  special skylight....£8,000 and  a crane???   GUESSING.

With subdivision by glazing bars perhaps half that but will hold the muck, and need extra cleaning...so obviously out of the question.

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

One last thing from me on this.

That skylight is huge.

Daylight from a skylight is about 3 x that from a window, so it doesn't need that size if daylight is the reason

Cost: what size is that? It is a huge piece of glass which would have to be rather special for safety and strength for wind and snow..

As one piece glass in  a  special skylight....£8,000 and  a crane???   GUESSING.

 

Interesting point. Currently it is indeed a 2x2m opening. I didn't really think of practicalities, 8000 is a lot of money but it is quite a feature 

 

Quote

With subdivision by glazing bars perhaps half that but will hold the muck, and need extra cleaning...so obviously out of the question.

 

Yup. It currently looks like this:

 

With (of course?) built-in shutters so we can block light and heat if we need to.

 

I suppose one alternative is something like this (pic found on the internet)

 

But are lanterns *truly* self cleaning and you have to never worry about them? Surely some inspections, at least the upstand, need to happen?

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by puntloos

[Mr Punter]

Get one like the V & A:

 

[puntloos]

3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Get one like the V & A:

 

 

Will that be more than @saveasteading's 8000 GBP?

[puntloos]

Seriously though - without roof-access from inside the house, will a normal-ish trade be able to get to the roof and clean, inspect occasionally without having to rent helicopters or an army of drones?

[Mr Punter]

Can't you get to it from the smaller rooflight?

[puntloos]

2 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Can't you get to it from the smaller rooflight?

 

Ha, yes, that was the main purpose of the smaller rooflight!
 

But then people pointed out you need a secure fixing point. And then inspect it yearly. And.. 

My *preference* I think still is to have that secure fixing point anyway but the hassle with building regs team feels daunting, and my architect says I'd need a specialist to design it to be strong enough etc. 

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, puntloos said:

I'd need a specialist

 

Not a specialist 'secure fixing point consultant', but someone who can choose a hook and a fixing and specify what to fix it to.

Not your architect by the sound of it.

Don't let hem engage another consultant at your expense. 

 

If you have an SE then that is not going to be difficult or expensive.

Ring + 2 nuts and a suitable piece of wood or steel in the structure.

£5 should cover the materials.

 

[joe90]

I have only just come across this thread and as an ex mountaineer and climber find the rules over the top. If it were my roof I would simply install a large eye bolt near the side of the large window, secured down to the roof trusses, reachable from the access small window, lanyard (short enough to not fall over the edge of the roof)  and screw carabiner and harness. This will be sufficient to clean said window but not fall, so no arrest equipment would not be needed. I still have harnesses and ropes many years old and still in good condition (they have to be stored correctly, no damp or sunlight. It’s simple enough to inspect ropes fir chaffing and harnessing fir stitching problems) but then again I would clean my own windows ?.

[Mr Punter]

I would not mess about with a fixing point.  Have the big window at a slight angle with self clean glass.  I doubt you will notice unless a passing vulture unloads over it.

[puntloos]

11 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I would not mess about with a fixing point.  Have the big window at a slight angle with self clean glass.  I doubt you will notice unless a passing vulture unloads over it.

 

What about flying elephants. Sure, they are a myth today but they are one nuclear accident and a bit more climate change away!

 

Seriously though, can someone answer my question:

Can a normal, but somewhat specialized cleaner or roof team reach my flat roof from the outside?

 

Or asking it somewhat differently:

If someone *has* to get to the roof, how much will this cost each time? Do we need a huge crane and trample all our flowers, or can some strategic ladders get you there?

(as a layman, I can easily see that on a 8.5m tall box shape, you can just get a 10m ladder. But since the top of my roof is sloped, a ladder can get you only to that tipping point, no?) 

Edited October 17, 2021 by puntloos

[Mr Punter]

Access via the small rooflight with a telescopic ladder would be my choice.  They could clean the window from on top with a reach and wash taken up through the house.  They could probably get there without actually stepping onto the roof.