How to deal with difficult builder?

[Adsibob]

I have retained a main contractor to pretty much do almost everything. The architect has prepared a very detailed drawing package and so has the structural engineer. I hired an architect who in turn hired the structural engineer on my behalf. The architect has some project management responsibilities, but basically I am the project manager delegating certain tasks to the architect as and when I need his expertise.

 

At the outset of the project the builder, the architect and I met and agreed a schedule in writing.

 

Part way through our works, it became apparent the foundations of the house we are converting were shallower than anticipated and so structural engineer recommended underpinning about 12m of wall. It’s only shallow underpinning, about 350mm to 550mm under most of the existing foundations, which are themselves fairly shallow, so although it was a bit scary for me to understand that this would be necessary at first, the architect has assured me is not a big deal, and builder didn’t seem phased by it at all. However, it took the structural engineer about 4 weeks to prepare the underpinning detail and in part this has affected the schedule. During this time, the builder became increasingly frustrated about the “delay” and threw his toys out the pram  a few times. I finally got the structural engineer’s drawings yesterday. After checking them with my architect I realised that it was quite complex, and that the drawings although apparently technically correct are not as clear as they could be. They are fairly clear, I just would have hoped that the draftsmanship could have made them clearer.

 

Although the builder is generally very competent and careful to get things right, he did make one assumption a few weeks back that resulted in a fairly big mistake. We’ve now addressed that mistake, but it has resulted in a loss of head height across our ground floor of about 6cm, was stressful to deal with and probably wasted a week of time for the builder  to fix it (this is the other reason for the delay mentioned above). I am very keen that no big mistake like that happens again, and I’ve also lost a degree of confidence in the builder’s ability to ask when he spots a potential ambiguity on a drawing, rather than assume he knows what it might mean. I’m being kind to the builder (there was no ambiguity, he just misread the drawing). For this reason, when I forwarded the underpinning detail to the builder yesterday morning, I did so under a covering email that made it crystal clear he was not to start the underpinning work until the engineer, the architect and I met with him to talk through the drawings and make sure everyone was on the same page. I told him that just he should finish uncovering the foundations internally (as requested by the engineer) and let me know when that would be ready so that I could let the engineer know and schedule the meeting.

 

No response to my email. Imagine my surprise when I called the builder today to ask whether he had received my email and he responds “yes, we’ve already started the underpinning “.

 

I pointed out that I had expressly asked him not to start until we had had the meeting with all the team; he threw his toys out the pram and said that would cause more delays and I will end up paying for them. When I reminded him of the previous issue that led to a week’s delay for failing to check a point on the drawing with the architect, and how I couldn’tafford any such mistakes with the underpinning he threatened not to do the underpinning. 

 

I know I am being reasonable and he is not, but I’m not really sure how to deal with this situation. I rather not switch builders at this stage, but I am starting to get tempted as there is still at least 4 or 5 months to go, we are really only at the early stages and although I might lose a bit of money, it’s not significant in the grand scheme of things.

 

Part of me wants to give the builder another chance but part of me thinks I’m being too nice.

 

 Thoughts?

 

 

[Gav_P]

In my experience, it’s only going to get harder and more challenging as the build progresses... if the builder is difficult now whilst doing the big easy stuff, it’s going to be a world of pain when it comes to all the finer details later. 
 

Also... in my experience... they don’t like customers with high standards. For example, in my area there are a lot of aerospace engineers - they expect builders to achieve the same level of tolerance as in aircraft.. so a lot of the builders round here won’t work for them ?

Edited March 19, 2021 by Gav_P

[Big Jimbo]

I have worked as a site manager, on several expensive new builds of £2 million +...... It's difficult. One the One hand you need to keep things moving along, and i'm telling you now, you can have all the drawings in the world (I've had over 400 for a 4000sq ft house). At  some point, on a practical level the drawings just won't work with the actual building taking place. The skill is the speed at getting it sorted quickly. Hold-ups cost money. I did Two houses in 2014. If i had had to refer back to the Client, Architect, Engineer everytime somebody waved a bit of paper at me, and said this don't work, I'd still bloody be there. I looked at a job for the Saudi Royal Family, and just at the quote stage i realised that every single time there was the slightest issue,it would have to be held untill the weekly site meeting, so that everybody could sit around and debate it. I knew that this would end up costing the client money, and me money. I'm not saying you are wrong, but wanting to discuss everything with the whole team, builder, architect, engineeer, interior designer, etc, etc, will be costing your builder money, because it's all a delay to his schedule. If he tells his guys not to come in for a few days, he still has to pay them. If he is organising any sub contractors, he will have to advise them that the site won't be ready for when he has them booked. There is then the risk that when he wants them they won't be available. From the sound of your post, you are having to get some underpining done. Get your engineer to get his butt to site pronto and talk it through with the builder. What is the architect going to bring to the party ? Another nice bill for you, that's all. builders build and engineers make sure it won't fall down. When your builder says to you, that detail, in that corner, don't work, but i can do it like this is that ok ? Be ready to make an instant decision, so that he can get on, and you can get your project finished. Listen, i'm not saying your builder is perfect. I'm just saying that it doubt it is all his fault

[Adsibob]

All good points. I’m really not seeking perfection, and believe me, as p*ssed off as I was about the mistake which led to a loss of 6cm of headroom and a week delay whilst the builder chipped away the excess concrete he had poured, I was actually very good about it and didn’t react the way I could have done.

But underpinning seems like a big deal and if they get it wrong there are going to be issues much harder to fix than the last one. If the builder really thinks he doesn’t need supervision on it, or a site meeting to check he understands what he’s doing, he really should have responded to me email to say so, rather than just ignore it. 

It’s useful having the architect there because he is the one that is project managing when I’m not able to. 

[Adsibob]

26 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

If he tells his guys not to come in for a few days, he still has to pay them. If he is organising any sub contractors, he will have to advise them that the site won't be ready for when he has them booked. There is then the risk that when he wants them they won't be available.

This doesn’t really apply in this situation because there is plenty of other things he could be getting on with like finishing the rear extension (not affected by the underpinning which is at the front and side of the original house). He’s only built about a third of that. Then he could also install the wooden joists for the first and second floor. And he hasn’t booked a subcontractor to do the underpinning, is just his regular team. My issue really is the lack of communication. If he has issues with my instructions, why not raise them with me instead of ignoring them?

[nod]

The problem you have Is ever builder is flat out at the moment 

If things where less busy I suspect he’d be less cavalier 

If your project is not time sensitive 

Fire him off and start getting estimates to complete the work 

This will cost you in time and money As taking over a job will come at a premium 

Your decision should be based on the quality of his work 

You don’t need to like him 

 

[Adsibob]

Thanks @nod I agree firing him is a last resort. I don’t really get the sense that demand for builders is exceeding supply, but I agree that a change of builder midway is somewhat of a nightmare. 
 

Generally, the quality of his work is good, he’s just a difficult person to deal with.

 

The question is how to move forward from him and ensure as few misunderstandings and confrontations as possible.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Adsibob

[Big Jimbo]

Adsibob. You want some extra work done. Underpining. So give some thought to the fact that your builder is now going to advise his next client that he will be late starting (That could have been You) Because you, and your engineer did'nt investigate the existing foundations you have now found out that you need additional work. That's hardly your builders fault is it ? However, that f up may now affect his work schedule for the rest of the year. So we could lay the blame with you or your engineer could'nt we ? However, if between you, you are able to work more as a team, you are going to get a better result. I'm sorry, but the only people that need to get on site is your engineer and your builder. No need for a tea party. Get it sorted and move on.

If you want to get on with your builder, deal with the problem quickly. Involving only the people that need to be there. Go out and buy him a case of beer, and apologise for the extra work, and tell him that you understand that this might cause him problems with his work schedule going forward with his other clients.

[TonyT]

I’m going to stick up for the builder, as he will be criticised for being late delivering the project due to delays that are not his fault.

 

he will submit extra costs for the the delay due to having to hire in equipment for longer, site set up costs etc

you will be angry at this.

 

the engineers will submit an invoice for extra work for the invoice and get paid no hassle.

the architect will submit an invoice for extra work due to the underpinning and get paid no problem.

 

easy to see why the builder gets upset?

 

[Big Jimbo]

Well said Tony T. .....Take the easy route and blame the builder. Always the same.

[PeterW]

53 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

I don’t really get the sense that demand for builders is exceeding supply,

You're in a minority then as I know sites that can’t get decent ones for 6-9 months and as @nod says, order books are maxed currently. Been told we may get another block shortage again, not due to no raw material but due to increase in construction ..!

 

55 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

The question is how to move forward from him and ensure as few misunderstandings and confrontations as possible.

Ask him for his advice - he’s the professional in this relationship. 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

You're in a minority then as I know sites that can’t get decent ones for 6-9 months and as @nod says, order books are maxed currently. Been told we may get another block shortage again, not due to no raw material but due to increase in construction ..!

 

Ask him for his advice - he’s the professional in this relationship. 

All trades are maxed out where I am . Book a plaster today he’ll turn up in 3 months . Roofer was booked for December, only just started the job . Covid lockdown has built up pent up demand ...

[nod]

41 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Thanks @nod I agree firing him is a last resort. I don’t really get the sense that demand for builders is exceeding supply, but I agree that a change of builder midway is somewhat of a nightmare. 
 

Generally, the quality of his work is good, he’s just a difficult person to deal with.

 

The question is how to move forward from him and ensure as few misunderstandings and confrontations as possible.

Most problems tend to be misunderstandings Texts and emails are a nightmare 

You will need to sit down with him and discuss your concerns 

I wouldn’t get the Architecht or SE involved He will think he’s being ganged up on 

If he’s work is good Nothing is indomitable 

 

It could be worse He could be clueless But a nice guy 

[Big Jimbo]

OP. your architect designed an extension to your property. He is a professional. Is he any good ? I mean he designed a structure that was going to put an extra load on your foundations. Did he flag that up with you ?

Your architect then passed the drawings onto his engineer mate. He is a professional. Is he any good ?. I mean he could clearly see that the new stucture was going to put additional loadings onto your existing footings. Did he flag that up with you ?

Your builder messed up a ceiling height. His fault. He put it right. Have i got that bit correct ?

You seem to be looking to blame the wrong person here. What do you think ?

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, Big Jimbo said:

Adsibob. You want some extra work done. Underpining. So give some thought to the fact that your builder is now going to advise his next client that he will be late starting (That could have been You)

I don't really buy this. We are 3 months into a 10 month job. So unless he has a client booked for 7 months time... it's highly unlikely. I sent him the tender docs in August and I kept pushing him to agree a contract for months yet he didn't sign it until the day before the build started.

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

I’m going to stick up for the builder, as he will be criticised for being late delivering the project due to delays that are not his fault.

 

he will submit extra costs for the the delay due to having to hire in equipment for longer, site set up costs etc

you will be angry at this.

 

the engineers will submit an invoice for extra work for the invoice and get paid no hassle.

the architect will submit an invoice for extra work due to the underpinning and get paid no problem.

 

easy to see why the builder gets upset?

 

No, I will pay for all the extra costs of the underpinning, and the builder will make a tidy profit. All I'm asking is for him to communicate with the structural engineer about the underpinning before he does something that takes much longer to fix than it would to query it in the first place. 

[Gav_P]

1 minute ago, Adsibob said:

I don't really buy this. We are 3 months into a 10 month job. So unless he has a client booked for 7 months time... it's highly unlikely. I sent him the tender docs in August and I kept pushing him to agree a contract for months yet he didn't sign it until the day before the build started.

I would expect he has several jobs promised to start at certain times... much like yours. He had to finished the previous one before committing to your contract. 

[TonyT]

2 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

No, I will pay for all the extra costs of the underpinning, and the builder will make a tidy profit. All I'm asking is for him to communicate with the structural engineer about the underpinning before he does something that takes much longer to fix than it would to query it in the first place. 

Isn’t making a profit the reason for being in business?

 

the structural engineer and architect should be coming to see him not the other way around.

[Adsibob]

25 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

 

Your builder messed up a ceiling height. His fault. He put it right. Have i got that bit correct ?

 

No, you haven't got that right at all. The builder miscalculated the heights of some steels and the height of the finished flaw level by 12cm. This was after I told him an offer that the architect was happy to take a look at his measurements before he ordered the steels. The builder effectively told me to F off and said that it wasn't the architect's job to check his measurements. I thought at the time, "this is good, i have hired a very confident builder who doesn't need supervision. The builder then ordered the steels and laid the biggest one, which was about 10m long, too high in the subfloor, 12cm too high, erected the box frame onto it and then poured concrete over the 10m long beam as well as into the trenches for the footings all far too high by 12cm. Had he taken up the architect's offer to check in with him on the measurements and setting out, this would have been avoided.

I could have fired him then or refused to pay him unless he removed all of it and started again from the beginning, but I knew that the reality was that if I had fired him I would have had to get somebody else to fix it, and that if I would have got him to pay for new beams and all the work of reducing the footings, it would have cut his profit and he would have clawed that back by cutting corners later on down the project. So i did the "right" thing and managed to figure out a way of mitigating the 12cm mistake by 6cm. This is a big concession on my part because it compromises on the amount of insulation above the beam and it also involves a non standard detail to the cavity wall which has taken a while to persuade the BCO is compliant and has stressed me about future damp issues no end. None of this was the structural engineer's fault or the architect fault's. It was the builder's fault for being so over confident and it was my fault for not recognising this when he told me to F off. 

[Adsibob]

7 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Isn’t making a profit the reason for being in business?

 

 

Yes, but he's pretty much got me over a barrel. I sent him the details of the underpinning yesterday and asked him how much it woudl be and when would be convenient to diarise the meeting with the engineer to go through the drawings. He ignored my email and started working on the underpinning today. So no agreed price. I'm happy for him to make a fair profit, but an extortionate one is unreasonable.

[Adsibob]

11 minutes ago, TonyT said:

the structural engineer and architect should be coming to see him not the other way around.

Precisely, which is why I asked the builder when would be good for him for the engineer to meet with him. No reply, just ignores me and starts the underpinning.

[Makeitstop]

Have to admit, I'm with Adsibob and would be mightily pissed at a builder that went ahead with something critical, after being told to wait until something was checked out.

 

The bottom line here is that the person paying is the boss, and if they're requesting the builder hold off on a particular piece of work, the minimum they deserve is to be informed of the fact the builder isnt intending to listen.

 

 

[TonyT]

13 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Yes, but he's pretty much got me over a barrel. I sent him the details of the underpinning yesterday and asked him how much it woudl be and when would be convenient to diarise the meeting with the engineer to go through the drawings. He ignored my email and started working on the underpinning today. So no agreed price. I'm happy for him to make a fair profit, but an extortionate one is unreasonable.

 You should  have agreed daywork rates, extras, hired equipment /material mark up for this eventuality before the first day on site.

 
Then you just need to keep an eye on time and materials

 

[TonyT]

16 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Precisely, which is why I asked the builder when would be good for him for the engineer to meet with him. No reply, just ignores me and starts the underpinning.

Isn’t the builder on site anyway?

just get the architect and engineer to turn up, have discussion on site

 

always the best way

 

 

[Adsibob]

3 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Isn’t the builder on site anyway?

No. His foreman is there everyday. The builder is there sometimes, but sometimes he’s not. And the structural engineer lives 80 miles away so isn’t going to pop in on the off chance it’s at a time the builder has chosen to be there.