Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 Attached is the proposal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I am suggesting a 1M fence adjacent to the footpath and a 2M fence a short distance in. That won't enclose all of your garden for your use but most of it. but the planners would have a hard time saying the 2M fence is "adjacent" to any highway or footpath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, ProDave said: I am suggesting a 1M fence adjacent to the footpath and a 2M fence a short distance in. That won't enclose all of your garden for your use but most of it. but the planners would have a hard time saying the 2M fence is "adjacent" to any highway or footpath. @ProDave the 2m fence will be set back over 6m from the front of the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Al1son said: @ProDave the 2m fence will be set back over 6m from the front of the road. Yes but as I am trying to say (obviously not very clearly) the planners are regarding the path as "the highway" and saying a 2M fence cannot be adjacent to that. So my suggestion is a 1M fence adjacent to the path, which is allowed, and then a 2M fence a short distance back from the footpath so they cannot say it is "adjacent" and fill the gap with some shrubs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, ProDave said: Yes but as I am trying to say (obviously not very clearly) the planners are regarding the path as "the highway" and saying a 2M fence cannot be adjacent to that. So my suggestion is a 1M fence adjacent to the path, which is allowed, and then a 2M fence a short distance back from the footpath so they cannot say it is "adjacent" and fill the gap with some shrubs. Got you, that is an option I could propose as a last resort, so first few metres along the footpath erect 1m and lay down shrubs behind them which will eventually get to the height of 2m and the rest of the length erect a 2m fence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 No I will try one more time, don't have time to do a drawing. 1M fence all the way along adjacent to the footpath, that we have established is allowed. Then next to and parallel with that a short distance away from the footpath, a 2M fence all the way. That cannot then be described as "adjacent" Suggestion to fill the gap with shrubs was an alternative to having a little strip of grass to keep mowing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, ProDave said: No I will try one more time, don't have time to do a drawing. 1M fence all the way along adjacent to the footpath, that we have established is allowed. Then next to and parallel with that a short distance away from the footpath, a 2M fence all the way. That cannot then be described as "adjacent" Suggestion to fill the gap with shrubs was an alternative to having a little strip of grass to keep mowing. If I've understood correctly don't think that work as it will restrict access to the land as it is quite narrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 From the plan, it looks like there is quite a lot of 'amenity' land included in the development. I can see why the council aren't keen for you to box your bit in, and if everyone did it, it would significantly affect the character of the area. I think I'd accept the 1m fence option tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 If you have had an application for a Certificate refused it"s up to you if you want to appeal. But you need to make sure to refute all the reasons they have given for refusal. Literally point by point in the order they list them in the refusal. If they raise any new issues during the appeal process you need to address those as they come up. I haven't read back through the whole thread.. have you checked the council footpath map? If its a public footpath point to the highway code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 If the Appeal fails you can still make a planning application but that's less likely to succeed because the issues they can raise are subjective. A certificate should be decided on objective grounds. For a Certificate the issue could be.. have PDR been removed or not? For a planning application it's going to be.. would the fence affect the use and appearance of the land? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) @Temp PD rights have been partially removed, details on page 3 of the thread but a fence can be erected It's a public footpath, the law states only pedestrians are only allowed to use on foot only For a certificate of lawfulness they are already arguing it's not in keeping with the openess of the area. And the land is classed as amenity land! Edited July 25, 2022 by Al1son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, Al1son said: For a certificate of lawfulness they are already arguing it's not in keeping with the openess of the area. And the land is classed as amenity land! I think you would need to show its "garden" not "amenity land". Find that plan that mentions an area in pink or argue no such plan exists. Refer back to the original approval for you house. Check the title plan to see if there is any demarcation. Permitted Development rights are different for Amenity land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, Temp said: I think you would need to show its "garden" not "amenity land". Find that plan that mentions an area in pink or argue no such plan exists. Refer back to the original approval for you house. Check the title plan to see if there is any demarcation. Permitted Development rights are different for Amenity land. The title plan shows the so called amenity land that the council are referring to as being in our ownership as indicated in red, it's the same as the location plan I attached to an earlier post. I will make enquiries to find the plan that they are referring to that is marked in pink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 If your title shows some is amenity land I think it's probably a lost cause. You would need to solve two issues 1. Prove its an official public footpath not just highway. That way bikes not allowed. 2. Convince them that you won't be absorbing the amenity land into your garden. Another option might be to ask them if they would consider a planning application for "change of use" for part of the amenity lan d to garden with a fence on the boundary between the two and no fence bordering the path. It's unlikely they would allow change of use for all of it. You would need to compromise to preserve the screen scene as they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Temp said: If your title shows some is amenity land I think it's probably a lost cause. You would need to solve two issues 1. Prove its an official public footpath not just highway. That way bikes not allowed. 2. Convince them that you won't be absorbing the amenity land into your garden. Another option might be to ask them if they would consider a planning application for "change of use" for part of the amenity lan d to garden with a fence on the boundary between the two and no fence bordering the path. It's unlikely they would allow change of use for all of it. You would need to compromise to preserve the screen scene as they say. Apologies, I was unclear the title plan doesn't make any reference to the land as being amenity land. It's definitely a public footpath I'm waiting on official confirmation that it's only for foot pedestrian use only Only other point of contention is how I convince them that it is not amenity land and how do I get them to allow me to erect a 2m fence given that they've said the area needs to kept open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I think at best they would allow a tall fence in line with the wall. Do some photoshop on this view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) @Temp I've uploaded the proposal on the location plan the 2m fence will be set back over 6m from the road which is in line to the wall Edited July 25, 2022 by Al1son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Apologies if this is already stated, or I have missed the point. A highway includes marginal land / verge etc up to the stated property. This is because the land has been deemed to be be highway in the past, possibly hundreds of years before. The road may have been wider to allow weaving past ruts and puddles, and may have had banks before being built up. If so, then it is not only the planner but also the highways authority who would want to retain the land. It could be of use in the future for road or services, and avoids recovering land that has been lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, Al1son said: @Temp I've uploaded the proposal on the location plan the 2m fence will be set back over 6m from the road which is in line to the wall No I mean the other wall like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, saveasteading said: A highway includes marginal land / verge etc Exactly, this was part of our planning argument, highways stated the verge was part of the highway (for a country road anyway, ) as her dead’s show her boundary is the edge of the path I can’t see planners call it a highway otherwise the deeds from the time it was built would show this. I used to work with a chap years ago that had amenity land outside his hedge but was shown on his deeds as his and he was allowed to erect a 2m fence (not sure how close to the pavement tho). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, Temp said: No I mean the other wall like this. 😂 They'll be no land or benefit if I do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) “Highway” is not defined in the GPDO for the purposes of Part 2. Section 336 of the principal 1990 Act defines the term by reference to the meaning within the Highways Act 1980. The interpretation section of the 1980 Act says “highway” means the whole or a part of a highway other than a ferry or waterway.” https://www.planninggeek.co.uk/glossary/h/highway/ Edited July 25, 2022 by Al1son 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 On 28/02/2021 at 17:56, Al1son said: We would like to install 6 ft close board fence panels from a safety and security perspective and will give us more garden space It gets you the security. To convert it to garden space would require a planning application for change of use from Amenity land to Residential Garden which they are likely to refuse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al1son Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 @Temp if we go with what you proposed the width will only be 1m wide vs being 4 to 5m wide We do not intend to incorporate that land into the garden we are just merely looking to enclose the curtilage of our boundary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDamo Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Is this still being discussed!?! 😳 @Al1son The PO has stated the situation along with the LPA’s position. Some of us have had a lot of experience with this and our advice in this instance sides with the PO/LPA. It appears you know better so Appeal the LDC application and see what the outcome is. When it is dismissed and on the assumption you still want to progress it, submit a Full application and see what the outcome is. When it is refused, Appeal that. If that Appeal also comes back dismissed, you know you’ve tried and explored all possible options. Then draw a line under it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now