tomcoleman Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Hi there Currently my UFH & system is setup as the following. Entire ground floor is UFH, i have a 8 port manifold (7 used) this is connected to my boiler and Pump. When i turn the nest up the pump kicks in pushing the water around the loops until temperature is met. Problem is the longer runs take longer to heat up so i purchased the Salus THB23030 - Auto Balancing Actuator. (7 of them!) I dont want to rip out my nest as i like the smart functions of the nest, i presume i can do the following. Install the Salus THB23030's (simple and easy todo) wire them into a Salus KL08NSB 8-zone wiring centre WHICH ONLY has 230v power supplied to it to power the Salus THB23030's. In effect they will be "always on" and will have the power to control the pins/flow as they see fit. Is there any thing im missing here? Would that be a good way todo it? As i say im retro fitting and dont really want to take away the nest or re-wire it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 Probably all you needed to do is balance the system, turn down the flow rate to the shorter loops and turn up the flow rate to the longer loops. can you post a picture of your manifold as it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly100 Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 I have those Acutators, my wiring system only powers them up if that Zone calls for heat. Question why an acutator would always be on, seems counter pruductive. Fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted February 17, 2021 Share Posted February 17, 2021 I think the main thing to be aware of if powering them off when nothing is calling for heat is ensure they don't get power cycled off/on too frequently as it puts them into recalibration mode. presumably their wiring centre has a power off delay to avoid that, but it's not clear. (It does have 3min hysteresis for the boiler) 1 hour ago, Fly100 said: Question why an acutator would always be on, seems counter pruductive. I was consider doing this just for simplicity in getting them commissioned and proven working, at least initially. Curious if there is any downside, except for the 0.5W wastage per actuator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 22 hours ago, ProDave said: Probably all you needed to do is balance the system, turn down the flow rate to the shorter loops and turn up the flow rate to the longer loops. can you post a picture of your manifold as it is? i have tried adjusting the flow rates and over time they just mess up its a real pain with some rooms getting hot and some not - hence the auto balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 17 hours ago, Fly100 said: I have those Acutators, my wiring system only powers them up if that Zone calls for heat. Question why an acutator would always be on, seems counter pruductive. Fly BUT if its always on i dont think makes a difference its not always on in the sense its always open, its more it always has power. The pin will then be able to move into any position the actuator see's fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 15 hours ago, joth said: I think the main thing to be aware of if powering them off when nothing is calling for heat is ensure they don't get power cycled off/on too frequently as it puts them into recalibration mode. presumably their wiring centre has a power off delay to avoid that, but it's not clear. (It does have 3min hysteresis for the boiler) I was consider doing this just for simplicity in getting them commissioned and proven working, at least initially. Curious if there is any downside, except for the 0.5W wastage per actuator yes if they are powered on/off all the time then they do go into calibration mode. hence i wanted to wire them into the wireing control center, porivde 230v to it and thats it so they are always on basically and just open and close as they see fit. the fact they are always on shouldnt make any difference to them ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly100 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 Tom, I still cant see the reason to keep them powered on all the time. Mine are off by default and never go into Calibration mode. Im confused why you would want them open. For instance if the UF was to come on in one room the fact they are open it would heat all the other rooms aswell.Unless im missing something you are defeating yourself at step one. Happy to debate this with you and hear your opinion as we all have differing goals. FLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I 1 hour ago, Fly100 said: Tom, I still cant see the reason to keep them powered on all the time. Mine are off by default and never go into Calibration mode. Im confused why you would want them open. For instance if the UF was to come on in one room the fact they are open it would heat all the other rooms aswell.Unless im missing something you are defeating yourself at step one. Happy to debate this with you and hear your opinion as we all have differing goals. FLY Sounds like he only has one stat (a Nest) for whole house. So yes all loops are either on or off together. If the Nest controls the UFH loop pump and boiler then no need for loop actuators at all. If they are just used for balancing it makes sense for them to be powered up (eg open) all the time to avoid accidental recalibration cycles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 4 hours ago, tomcoleman said: i have tried adjusting the flow rates and over time they just mess up its a real pain with some rooms getting hot and some not - hence the auto balance. The original setup did not have any actuators on the mainfold, just manual adjusters. If you want to try the Salus actuators, just connect them all in parallel and connect that to the manifold pump power. you will probably want another junction box to marshal that number of cables into the existing wiring centre. I will be intertested to see if it makes a difference, I am sceptical but willing to be proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 18, 2021 Author Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Temp said: I Sounds like he only has one stat (a Nest) for whole house. So yes all loops are either on or off together. If the Nest controls the UFH loop pump and boiler then no need for loop actuators at all. If they are just used for balancing it makes sense for them to be powered up (eg open) all the time to avoid accidental recalibration cycles. exactly the above. I have 1 thermostat (nest) which controls the UFH for the entire ground floor. If the actuatorsare powered on all the time then they will just open / close as they see fit to make sure floor is balanced? unless I'm missing something I was going to wire the actuators into the KL08NSB then just power that with mains power. When the nest calls for heat the loops will start to have water pumped through them, the actuators will then (most likley) close the hottest loops first thus giving more flow to the coolest loops thus having a balanced ground floor ? Edited February 18, 2021 by tomcoleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 I wonder if being powered ON all the time will actually slow response tho- even with no flow or energy input aren't they going to close down to try and maintain a deltaT? How will they then respond to a very slow rise in supply temp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 12 hours ago, dpmiller said: I wonder if being powered ON all the time will actually slow response tho- even with no flow or energy input aren't they going to close down to try and maintain a deltaT? How will they then respond to a very slow rise in supply temp? as i understand it they open/shut depending on the reading of the probes. So if they are always powered on, they will always have power - no issue there. Being powered on all the time they will always be "detecting" temp via the problems when the pump/boiler is off the loop will cool down, the probes will tell the actuator "im cold" and the actuator will open (there just wont be any flow or heat as pump and boiler will be off) when pump boiler is on the actuators will already be in an open state it will then close or minimize the flow to the hottest circuit/loops thus giving more flow and heat to the coldest ones exactly what im trying to achive. unless im being stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav_P Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 I think they just try to maintain a delta of 7 degrees between the flow and return on each individual loops... I would think that they won’t balance between loops because each loop will have their own heat loss rate. For example one room could need more heat input to achieve the same target temp as another room. Would it ever balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted February 19, 2021 Author Share Posted February 19, 2021 41 minutes ago, Gav_P said: I think they just try to maintain a delta of 7 degrees between the flow and return on each individual loops... I would think that they won’t balance between loops because each loop will have their own heat loss rate. For example one room could need more heat input to achieve the same target temp as another room. Would it ever balance? but if loop 1 gets hot quicker (smaller run) the valve would then close or reduce right? if it does then more flow (i.e quicker hot water) will be pumped to the colder circuits fixing my issue i'll install soon - only one way to find out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 so i got the units installed buy having a nightmare with them. all 7 actuator's are linked into the KL08NSB controlbox which is powered by 240v mains. The all come on and powerup fine, no issues. On first setup as per the manual heating was switched on, actuator's was then powered on and LED's ontop began to blink (i presume this was calibration phase) i left it for around 30mins. During this time the actuator's closed, opened then closed (their boot up sequence) and remained closed. They basically will not open or balance the pump is on, boiler is on heating and i can see the temp rising on the probe and worried it will burst or something if gets stupid hot, which it is because the valves are all fully shut and pump is trying to push water around the circuit. any ideas on what i can do ? i took a video of the boot sequence here you can see at the end they all fully shut and stay shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Are all the green LEDs saying lit on the control panel ..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 4 minutes ago, PeterW said: Are all the green LEDs saying lit on the control panel ..?? yes, my control panel is wired to be always on giving 24/7 power to the Actuator's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 Have you tested that with a meter and confirmed it..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, PeterW said: Have you tested that with a meter and confirmed it..? yes 240v into the control box, LED's green, Voltage going to the actuators, which move (open/close) and RED LED's lit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 sorry forgot to post the sequence of what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 And the pump is starting ..?? pipes getting warm..?? Clips the right way round ..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, PeterW said: And the pump is starting ..?? pipes getting warm..?? Clips the right way round ..?? everything working as it should. just valves close and stay closed. clips are 10cm as per manual - not sure they have a way around to go ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) If I've understood correctly you have the actuators powered all the time? What happens if (after calibration) you turn the power to the actuators off then on again? The manual says it should flash the led for 2min then fully open the valve. Edited March 18, 2021 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcoleman Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, Temp said: If I've understood correctly you have the actuators powered all the time? What happens if (after calibration) you turn the power to the actuators off then on again? The manual says it should flash the led for 2min then fully open the valve. ok it might be fixed!! i read somewhere to leave it on for 60mins "calibrating" and not the 20mins the manual says. So far this seems to have worked and the valves are now open and everything is balanced at 2l/m 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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