Jeremy Harris Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) I don't know for sure, but I read the notice as if it were giving me warning that I had a duty to do everything reasonable to secure the key fob, and suspected that they would be awkward about paying out the full amount if they could show negligence on my part. I may be wrong; there has been a lot of publicity about scrotes breaking into houses to steal car keys, so maybe they were just giving a free public service notice. What makes me suspicious is that, as a sideline, I've worked as an expert witness for insurance companies (aviation related) or several years now, usually when they've been contesting personal injury claims following an accident. I have a bit of inside knowledge as to what they will try to do to get out of paying a big claim, and it's not nice. Edited February 9, 2017 by JSHarris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 It must be the time of the year! We've had three robberies in the village in the past two weeks, a caravan, a quad and tools taken from a garage. The Police think it's the same person each time. The only good CCTV shows a person in full CSI style disposable overall, including hood, gloves and face mask! The car used to tow away the caravan was itself stolen and was found dumped a few days ago. Mind you, it's prompted me to look at getting CCTV, at least it's a bit of a deterant and provides some sort of record of goings on! Now all I need to do is go back over previous posts to try and fathom out which system to get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Very simple folks :- If in any doubt, ring your insurance company and ask them ! They are devious b4stsards so best to clarify any specific criteria they may have 'indirectly imposed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 10 hours ago, Construction Channel said: i would hope a locked house would class as secure...... But only if the door and window locks meet the required British standards as stated in your insurance T&Cs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 This represents an interesting demonstration of the unintended consequences of technology. Thirty years ago my Citroen was broken into using a screwdriver, the next car had better locks so the window got smashed and the steering lock broken. Subsequent vehicles have got better and better locks, alarms and immobilisers - so now your house gets broken into to steal the car. I wonder if we went back 30 years this is where we would have wanted to end up. Next generation vehicles are going to start ditching keys altogether and start using biometrics. My guess is this will lead to an increase in crimes against the person rather than property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 When we were burgled (scrotes kicked the door off the bungalow we've since demolished to build the new house), it turned out we didn't have a BS approved lock that the terms of our insurance required. Surprisingly, Tesco insurance paid out without a whimper. That included over £400 in cash (PTA money from a school fare we'd had the day before) and new-for-old on a beaten up old Macbook that I'd bought second hand several years before (they paid out well over twice what I'd paid for it!) And it wasn't even an oversight. They pointed out that the lock wasn't up to snuff and that they wouldn't pay out again in the future if the door or window through which access was gained wasn't locked to the required standard. So yes, insurers can be bastards (the ones we're dealing with the roof leak are a good example!) but they aren't always. Oh, and I certainly wouldn't recommend relying on an insurer's goodwill. Check the terms of your insurance for lock types. Usually you'll beed a BS3621 5 lever deadlock, but some insurers will accept other good quality locks. Ours was happy with the high-spec (anti-bump/snap) euro-lock on our multi-point locking front door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Do insurance companies place requirements on outside key safes? And if a key safe is nto xyz compliant will that be a possible reason for rejection of a breakin claim where the keysafe was not used to provide the means of entry? (Yes, I bet they would argue that...). F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 10 hours ago, JSHarris said: I don't know for sure, but I read the notice as if it were giving me warning that I had a duty to do everything reasonable to secure the key fob, and suspected that they would be awkward about paying out the full amount if they could show negligence on my part. I may be wrong; there has been a lot of publicity about scrotes breaking into houses to steal car keys, so maybe they were just giving a free public service notice. My best guess is that they're just trying to get people to be aware of the problem so they can reduce the number of payouts. I've never heard of anyone not being covered by insurance in this situation (a mate of mine had his new Porsche nicked by someone fishing for his keys through the letterbox), but it'd be interesting to know if that's the way things are headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Just now, Ferdinand said: Do insurance companies place requirements on outside key safes? My wife wants one of these. I looked into it and have put my foot down. They just scream "here's where the key is". The right kind of pry bar will have many of these off in seconds, ready for the scrote to take home and open at will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) I had them asking a couple of years ago for proof of an inspection and maintenance regime on a tree from previous years, when the requirement for 3 yearly inspections only came in with a policy that had been in place for a week under which the claim was made. Denial of liability was threatened. Eventually I lost patience and ignored them (not necessarily a good idea), and they have not come back. Ferdinand Edited February 10, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, jack said: My wife wants one of these. I looked into it and have put my foot down. They just scream "here's where the key is". The right kind of pry bar will have many of these off in seconds, ready for the scrote to take home and open at will. I have one. There was a previous useful conversation somewhere. The key (!) was to put it somewhere where it is seen everytime someone comes in, so in the case above the locks can be changed expeditiously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yes, I saw the other conversation. That was what prompted me to do a bit more research (well, that and yet more prodding from the missus). I'm just not happy with the risk. I have a couple of other ideas that I'm happier with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 We had the best external key safe I could find at the time, bolted securely to a fence on the site that would have been noisy and difficult to demolish, as our meter box is in it. It was only there so that contractors could get in and out whilst we were building. One of the guys managed to defeat the combination lock one morning, as he'd forgotten the combination for that week (I changed it each week, as we had different people coming in and out). It's still on the fence, just because it's difficult to get off (I bolted it on with those shear-head security bolts), but now contains an old key that doesn't fit any doors on the house. My thoughts were that leaving an old key in it would probably waste a fair bit of time for any potential burglar, as I'm guessing these scrotes like to get in and out as quickly as they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 35 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: This represents an interesting demonstration of the unintended consequences of technology. Thirty years ago my Citroen was broken into using a screwdriver, the next car had better locks so the window got smashed and the steering lock broken. Subsequent vehicles have got better and better locks, alarms and immobilisers - so now your house gets broken into to steal the car. I wonder if we went back 30 years this is where we would have wanted to end up. Next generation vehicles are going to start ditching keys altogether and start using biometrics. My guess is this will lead to an increase in crimes against the person rather than property. It's more fundamental than that. My car unlocks and turns the alarm off when I PRESS THE BUTTON on the key fob. It's the doing away with that one simple operation, and making the key and car sense each other without intervention, that has allowed this amplifier trick to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 23 minutes ago, ProDave said: It's more fundamental than that. My car unlocks and turns the alarm off when I PRESS THE BUTTON on the key fob. It's the doing away with that one simple operation, and making the key and car sense each other without intervention, that has allowed this amplifier trick to work. You're absolutely right, Dave. Keyless entry is a convenience, for sure, but has added a massive vulnerability into the vehicle security system and one that the scrotes have found a work around for pretty easily. If the car was just a receiver and the fob a transmitter, as push-button fobs generally are, then the amplifier (more accurately transponder/repeater) trick couldn't work. The problem is the car manufacturers seem to often place sales gimmicks intended to add convenience without thinking through all the consequences. I've been told by the Toyota dealer that Toyota have fixed the problem - they did do a firmware upgrade on mine recently that addressed "minor security issues". The main problem seems to be with VAG vehicles, as they seem to have a hard-wired system that isn't as easy to update, and it seems that it's certain VAG vehicles that are targeted by the scrotes using this trick. I could be wrong, it's a few months since I last researched it, but I believe that's the case. There's a video on this site showing an Audi RS4 being stolen in this way: https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/how-thieves-hack-into-and-steal-keyless-entry-cars/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Taking this thread a bit further, whilst planning my wiring I was wondering what type of alarm to fit, I tend not to like wireless ( too many radio waves about already for my liking) . I spotted one that had a key fob like most cars and tend to think this is better than keying in a number to arm/disarm for convenience. Any thoughts or suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Don't ! The tendency is to attach the fob to your keys. When your keys get nicked you hand over the method to disable your alarm at the same time. A friend of mine lost her handbag, keys, fob and was burgled before she knew they were gone. BTW - I agree with the distrust of wireless. I've hard wired for an alarm system, not sure which one to get yet ? Probably a Texecom system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 We have a wireless system but don't take the fobs out of the house. It makes it easier to set the alarm when you go to bed. Astonishingly neighbour's car already recovered by police and sitting back in their driveway. Two neighbours had alarms upgraded today. Apparently they can be disabled by ripping unit off the wall. I thought that would set them off, but supposedly that requires a higher level of alarm. Good to know to specify new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, AliG said: We have a wireless system but don't take the fobs out of the house. It makes it easier to set the alarm when you go to bed. Astonishingly neighbour's car already recovered by police and sitting back in their driveway. Two neighbours had alarms upgraded today. Apparently they can be disabled by ripping unit off the wall. I thought that would set them off, but supposedly that requires a higher level of alarm. Good to know to specify new one. That's good news, and, I suspect that's unusual, too, to get the car back in one piece. The fact that ripping a box off a wall disables an alarm is amazing. I've heard of the expanding foam trick, where the scrotes get up a ladder and squirt can foam into the housing to silence the alarm, but not just ripping the thing off the wall! Edited February 10, 2017 by JSHarris typo, "of" when I meant "off" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Yes the alarms were installed by the builder when the houses were built. I think that maybe makes things too easy for the criminals as every house has the same kind of alarm and they are all installed in the understair cupboard so no looking around to find how to disable them. I went to look at garage and front doors today. Struggling to get a garage door to match the windows, may have to do something more contrasting. The more I think about it, simple physical security is likely to work best. I was going to get a quote for a solid panelled door from the window company, but I see that a flat steel security door can be had for less than £200. So instead of spending thousands on cctv etc. 1. Sectional insulated steel garage door - perhaps with extra bolts on the sides to prevent it being forced up. 2. Steel security door between house and garage. 3. Maybe steel security door to the plant room so no one can mess with the alarm, electrics etc. 4. secure key storage. The extra costs for this would only be a few hundred pounds and it seems pretty foolproof assuming they don't turn up and cut through the garage door. I don't know if neighbours had a tracker. The car is a new Lexus SUV. Their angular appearance makes them one of the most noticeable cars on the road. Maybe someone just spotted it. Edited February 10, 2017 by AliG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I agree that physical security has to be the better option. I don't think alarms are that effective, as so many people just ignore them, them until they have been sounding long enough to be a nuisance. I wish that external door and window roller shutters were a bit more affordable, as they offer the dual benefit of reducing solar gain and enhancing security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 On 09/02/2017 at 17:01, jamiehamy said: I already do that. I leave it open all the time by accident and it has never been touched in 9 years. But once house is built I want a newer car... + 1 on driving a heap. Always slightly disappointed when its still there the next morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alphonsox Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I was always told that from a thieves perspective you need to make you house less attractive to burgle than your neighbours, without advertising the fact that you have something to steal. So never be the first in the street to fit an alarm system but never be the last. The same probably goes for roller shutters and driveway poles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) A tea leaf was caught near me a few years ago and the police found a map in his pocket and some houses had a big cross through them, when asked about this he simply said " them ouses have dogs, don't go near them" i would like like to keep geese eventually, even better than a dog I recon. Edited February 10, 2017 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Alphonsox said: I was always told that from a thieves perspective you need to make you house less attractive to burgle than your neighbours, without advertising the fact that you have something to steal. So never be the first in the street to fit an alarm system but never be the last. The same probably goes for roller shutters and driveway poles. A bit like asking someone if they have a burglar alarm, and my favourite reply .... "no, we haven't been burgled yet". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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