Vertical Axis Wind Turbines in the garden

[EmB]

Do not know if anyone is interested but we are in a windy spot and looking at the sleet pelting down driven by a northerly wind am fairly sure i am interested in this 500watt turbine

https://www.windsolar-products.co.uk/products/nt_whirlwind_turbine.html

 with some solar panels, a battery bank, and electric wet hearing system - currently have an old oil fired boulter boiler - which really seems quite efficient except have no idea how much oil am using - so is it ? 

Dont know if will be able to just swap in an electric combi boiler which will hopefully turn the coal hole in to a lovely indoor airing cupboard

And yes will possibly be a bit expensive in winter but surely summer will sort it all out especially if you are chucking electricity back into the grid or am i being fanciful

Will my meter not wind backwards and will it all not balance out in the end?

plus all those companies that do use electricity in summer they will benefit wont they?

[A_L]

6 minutes ago, EmB said:

i am interested in this 500watt turbine

under no circumstances buy this piece of greenwash

 

7 minutes ago, EmB said:

which really seems quite efficient

from what I can find they are noncondensing so about 85% efficient when new, minus 1.0% per year for its age

 

9 minutes ago, EmB said:

electric combi boiler

a litre of oil holds about 10.5kWh, using the efficiency compare with your favourite electricity tariff

 

11 minutes ago, EmB said:

but surely summer will sort it all out especially if you are chucking electricity back into the grid

not a chance, at best you will get 5p/kWh for export

 

12 minutes ago, EmB said:

Will my meter not wind backwards

only possible if you have a spinning disc meter, even if you do you are required to inform your supplier

 

13 minutes ago, EmB said:

plus all those companies that do use electricity in summer they will benefit wont they?

how? they will still have to pay their supplier for electricity through their meter, even if it actually came from you

 

Sorry! ?

[EmB]

ok well have asked for more info

i know that many of these do not work in colder weather but it looks like this one might

and of course it spins all which ways

looks very similar to the design i found on you tube way back when 

 

[SteamyTea]

42 minutes ago, EmB said:

i being fanciful

You are.

 

Small winturbines are very inefficient, and ask yourself why most turbines are horizontal axis ones with blades, and very large 

 

The cheapest renewable energy is currently photovoltaic.

[EmB]

well i consider a horizontal would be dangerous unless mounted up high and then you are fighting with planning control

and like i said was just an addition not substitute for photovoltaic & battery bank which seem to be being sold in packages these days

I have been thinking about this guy since 2010 or 11

Also am wondering if you could put a  couple of panels from the pack vertically on the gable end wall which is south facing along with panels on south easterly roof

I am being fanciful but think i shall try to investigate and see what comes up now that battery banks seem to have improved

 

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, EmB said:

well i consider a horizontal would be dangerous unless mounted up high and then you are fighting with planning control

and like i said was just an addition not substitute for photovoltaic & battery bank which seem to be being sold in packages these days

I have been thinking about this guy since 2010 or 11

Also am wondering if you could put a  couple of panels from the pack vertically on the gable end wall which is south facing along with panels on south easterly roof

I am being fanciful but think i shall try to investigate and see what comes up now that battery banks seem to have improved

 

Unless any wind turbine is mounted up high and clear of buildings and other obstructions, they will be very inefficient.

 

About the only advantage if a vertical axis turbine is they are easy to DIY build if you like tinkering.  But generally they need higher wind speeds to generate any useful power.

 

And do your sums on battery storage.  Batteries cost, and don;t last forever.  Factor in all the costs including end of life battery replacement, and I will be surprised if your "free" stored power is much cheaper than just buying it from the grid.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, EmB said:

well i consider a horizontal would be dangerous unless mounted up high and then you are fighting with planning control

All turbines have to be up high, that is where the wind is more consistent.  That is why they are up high.

 

I cannot see the advantage of fitting a PV module vertically against a wall, especially a south facing one.  But you can see what will happen if you go to PVGIS and set the angles and see what comes out.

 

[wozza]

1 hour ago, EmB said:

Will my meter not wind backwards and will it all not balance out in the end?

 

1 hour ago, A_L said:

only possible if you have a spinning disc meter, even if you do you are required to inform your supplier

 

I have Solar PV, and I have a disc meter - when generating more than using, it winds backwards for the maximum of one revolution then just stops spinning.

[ProDave]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

All turbines have to be up high, that is where the wind is more consistent.  That is why they are up high.

 

I cannot see the advantage of fitting a PV module vertically against a wall, especially a south facing one.  But you can see what will happen if you go to PVGIS and set the angles and see what comes out.

 

@Stones fitted a few vertical PV panels at the same time I fitted mine.  Perhaps he might come and tell us how they are doing.

 

As well as my main E/W split array I had 2 spare panels so I set those up vertically one on the E and the other the W end of my shed.  The hope was to get a little bit extra early and late generation, accepting they won't do much in the middle of the day.  They certainly won;t give optimum generation like that, but that was not the point.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

As well as my main E/W split array I had 2 spare panels so I set those up vertically one on the E and the other the W end of my shed.  The hope was to get a little bit extra early and late generation, accepting they won't do much in the middle of the day.  They certainly won;t give optimum generation like that, but that was not the point.

Better off fitting then horizontally (but keep them clean) as they can take advantage of scattered light on a dull day.

There is too much reliance on direct beam irradiation in my opinion.

Edited February 5, 2021 by SteamyTea

[EmB]

ok well again was to add to solar power /photovoltaic and wind is quite strong in these parts - over the fence is an open park so the previous owner grew a large hedge to slow the wind  when it is in the south the wind drives the rain in through the door and floor is soaked in minutes

but you guys know more about this kind of thing

my daughters friend is passionate free energy guy so well we shall see

you are probably right but gonna keep an eye on things and keep open mind

[EmB]

is cheapest power  voltaic ( if you are lucky to have a roof / southern facing roof or safe place to leave your panels_ or hydro if you are lucky to have a strong burn / stream on your property?

[EmB]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Better off fitting then horizontally (but keep them clean) as they can take advantage of scattered light on a dull day.

There is too much reliance on direct beam irradiation in my opinion.

ok so if you have a number of panels  i dont really know how many i could fit up there - seems to be packs where you buy 10 panels plus inverter and battery bank for around £3k, then maybe you could perhaps put one or two  high on a south facing wall or do they all have to be together for the wiring?

[EmB]

of course am still to figure out how much energy i use over the winter plus did you say per litre of oil was 10'5kw? that is interesting - thanks

[EmB]

49 minutes ago, ProDave said:

And do your sums on battery storage.  Batteries cost, and don;t last forever.  Factor in all the costs including end of life battery replacement, and I will be surprised if your "free" stored power is much cheaper than just buying it from the grid.

so is it cheaper therefore just to send it back into the grid and leave out batteries altogether - sounds a lot simpler - have to admit dont really trust batteries that much - you have to charge them just right and as you say they still give out on you

and if connected to the grid why not use it

if we all put it back in with free energy then perhaps eventually the cost will come down who knows 0 rememer the days when a 1.5KB hard drive pc cost £1800??

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by EmB

[TonyT]

35 minutes ago, EmB said:

is cheapest power  voltaic ( if you are lucky to have a roof / southern facing roof or safe place to leave your panels_ or hydro if you are lucky to have a strong burn / stream on your property?

You can do east /west facing strings on 2 strings into the PV inverter.

doesn't have to be just south

[Stones]

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

@Stones fitted a few vertical PV panels at the same time I fitted mine.  Perhaps he might come and tell us how they are doing.

 

As well as my main E/W split array I had 2 spare panels so I set those up vertically one on the E and the other the W end of my shed.  The hope was to get a little bit extra early and late generation, accepting they won't do much in the middle of the day.  They certainly won;t give optimum generation like that, but that was not the point.

 

My system seems to be generating 10% more than PVGIS would suggest for my location as fitted vertically (90 degrees). Had I fitted on roof / ground mounted at 45 degrees, PVGIS indicates generation would be around 20% higher.

 

The decision to vertically mount was simply a pragmatic one.  Already had a structure in place to fix the system to, didn't need scaffold/roofers etc.  Yes I have lower generation (circa 250kWh p.a.) but the cost attached to getting that extra generation didn't seem worth it.

[Onoff]

12 hours ago, EmB said:

so is it cheaper therefore just to send it back into the grid and leave out batteries altogether - sounds a lot simpler - have to admit dont really trust batteries that much - you have to charge them just right and as you say they still give out on you

and if connected to the grid why not use it

if we all put it back in with free energy then perhaps eventually the cost will come down who knows 0 rememer the days when a 1.5KB hard drive pc cost £1800??

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_stop

[Onoff]

12 hours ago, EmB said:

so is it cheaper therefore just to send it back into the grid and leave out batteries altogether - sounds a lot simpler - have to admit dont really trust batteries that much - you have to charge them just right and as you say they still give out on you

and if connected to the grid why not use it

if we all put it back in with free energy then perhaps eventually the cost will come down who knows 0 rememer the days when a 1.5KB hard drive pc cost £1800??

 

 

Aa , . '

 

?

[ProDave]

12 hours ago, EmB said:

so is it cheaper therefore just to send it back into the grid and leave out batteries altogether - sounds a lot simpler - have to admit dont really trust batteries that much - you have to charge them just right and as you say they still give out on you

and if connected to the grid why not use it

if we all put it back in with free energy then perhaps eventually the cost will come down who knows 0 rememer the days when a 1.5KB hard drive pc cost £1800??

 

The BEST thing you can do with your PV power is self use it.  Up to about a 4kW array that is relatively easy.

 

I self use almost all we generate.  The key to that is use all the big appliances (washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer) one at a time in the daytime close to mid day.  If you are not in all day, set them on a timer to come on at the best time.

 

Then the next "must have" is a solar PV diverter.  You can buy one or I chose to make one for the fun of it.  This measures how much you generate and how much you are using, and if generation exceeds usage, it sends surplus to your immersion heater to heat your domestic hot water rather than send it to the grid.  I reckon about 1/3 of what I generate ends up in the immersion heater.

 

In the 2 years my system has been running I have only exported 204kWh.  Most of that small export happens on a sunny day, when there are no appliances running to self use it, the panels can generate up to 3.68kW but the immersion heater can only consume a little under 3kW so there could be 700W exported.  To help that further I have added a small 700W convector heater that I presently have in the utility room (though it is wireless control so can go anywhere) and that can help reduce export further in the shoulder seasons, but it is not long into the spring when the house gets to warm to use that.  I could be stubborn and put it in the garage just to stop export I guess.

 

Given your windy location it is probably worth trying a small turbine, but get a proper horizontal turbine on a pole high enough to be well above head height I doubt it needs to be very high, but in an exposed location it will have to be a sturdy pole probably with guy wires.

 

I have a small burn through my garden.  I probably will experement with some hydro generation just as a fun project later, but all the calculations I have done suggest with the small head I have, and small flows that I could divert I would be lucky to generate 50W.  You really need access to a watercourse much higher up to capture the water with a much greater fall to get sensible power, I barely have 1 metre fall from one end of my garden to the other.  If I do try anything it will probably be an undershot water wheel rather than a turbine.

 

I think battery storage for PV only starts to become viable when you have exhausted all the self use options, so probably only for an array over 4kW

[EmB]

 

[SteamyTea]

M.G.H gives you the power of a water turbine.

M is Mass Flow Rate in kg.s^-1

G is gravity 9.81 m.s^-2

H is height (or drop) in m.

 

A wind turbine a a little more complicated, but still only multiplication.

 

P = C_p.1/2.p.A.V³

Where P = power in watts

C_p = efficiency of turbine

p = air density

A = swept area of turbine

V = wind speed

 

[ProDave]

9 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

M.G.H gives you the power of a water turbine.

M is Mass Flow Rate in kg.s^-1

G is gravity 9.81 m.s^-2

H is height (or drop) in m.

 

Which for my burn with a 1M drop, each 1kg/s water falling will give me 10W of electricity.

 

It's easy to see with my modest burn and only diverting a portion of the flow would not amount to much power.

[EmB]

On 06/02/2021 at 11:21, ProDave said:

 a proper horizontal turbine on a pole high enough to be well above head height I doubt it needs to be very high, but in an exposed location it will have to be a sturdy pole probably with guy wires.

Cannot go high building plan regs

 

I have a small burn through my garden.  I probably will experiment with some hydro generation just as a fun project later,

Found this guy's you tube video set on working with his burn - think there is also a bit about creating a small dam although he has to be careful not to flood his neighbours property

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, EmB said:

think there is also a bit about creating a small dam although he has to be careful not to flood his neighbours property

There are a whole raft of rules, regulations and laws about putting in water turbines.

If people think that micro generation with wind is hard, try water.