Planning permission

[Willl]

Hi to all, 

 

I am looking to do a loft conversion and am confused as to whether planning permission is required.. I have spoken to the planning department and they were unable to advise and to get pre planning advice from them costs hundreds of pounds!

 

I am going to copy what a neighbour has done with their identical property and they have kindly given me their plans to refer to. (Unfortunately they are unsure as to whether they had to get planning permission.. ) These show the measurements for the conversion as:

 

HIP TO GABLE: L2.52 X W8.86 X H2.17 / 6 = 8.07m3


PROPOSED DORMER: H2.03 X W5.75 X D4.20 / 2 = 24.51m3


TOTAL = 32.58m3


The measurement from the ridge to the back of the new roof would be 4208 and the height at the back 2033. I can’t see a measurement showing the width of the property (don't think this is shown in the measurements above?? )


I believe we satisfy all the criteria listed here (for permitted development):

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/36/loft_conversion

but I am not certain of the first one:

 

• A volume allowance of 40 cubic metres additional roof space for terraced houses*

 

 

If anyone could 'shine some light' that would be much appreciated!

 

Thanks,

 

Will 

 

 

 

[joe90]

I have fought planners several times over loft conversions, you do not need planning for dormers on the rear or sides of a house (even tho some planners say you do. )

[nod]

You will certainly need drawings to submit to your local Authority for building regs 

Probably worth having a word with your neighbor 

[recoveringbuilder]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I have fought planners several times over loft conversions, you do not need planning for dormers on the rear or sides of a house (even tho some planners say you do. )

Yes agree with that, we were going to do a loft conversion on our cottage and as long as we weren’t putting dormers to the front (road facing) side of the property we didn’t need planning just a building warrant. 

[Willl]

20 minutes ago, nod said:

You will certainly need drawings to submit to your local Authority for building regs 

Probably worth having a word with your neighbor 

I have their drawings; can I submit these for the building regs and do I need to do this before work commences?

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[joe90]

You can do “building notice” and get stuff passed as you do it but I prefer “full plans “ this means they pass everything you want to do so you get no nasty surprises half way through.

[Willl]

18 minutes ago, joe90 said:

You can do “building notice” and get stuff passed as you do it but I prefer “full plans “ this means they pass everything you want to do so you get no nasty surprises half way through.

 

Thanks joe90. So I should submit plans to them before the work starts? Am I able to use my neighbours existing plans as our properties our the same and we want to copy the loft conversion that they have done? 

[Temp]

There is a bunch of info in here but I suspect you are OK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance

Search it for "loft" or "roof" as the relevant bits are spread out.

 

1 hour ago, Willl said:

HIP TO GABLE: L2.52 X W8.86 X H2.17 / 6 = 8.07m3

 

Not quite sure why you have divided by 6? Can you post a sketch with dimensions?

 

If the height is only 2.17m won't you will have a problem with headroom, especially after taking into account the depth of insulation needed.

 

 

 

[joe90]

15 minutes ago, Temp said:

taking into account the depth of insulation needed.

Yes, depends on how long ago your neighbour did theirs, insulation levels are going up all the time (quite right too). Post the drawings up here and there are guys here who know the regs.

[Willl]

Drawings attached.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Willl]

I don't know if the drawings posted help shine some light on if I need planning permission? As mentioned above I think we are within all the criteria for permitted development but I am a little unsure regarding this rule:

 

• A volume allowance of 40 cubic metres additional roof space for terraced houses*

 

Any advice would be much appreciated..

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Mr Punter]

Agree with @Temp and @joe90.  The neighbours would not work with current building regs.  You need at least another 100mm height.  Have you seen the neighbours?

Edited February 2, 2021 by Mr Punter

[Temp]

On 23/01/2021 at 13:02, Willl said:

HIP TO GABLE: L2.52 X W8.86 X H2.17 / 6 = 8.07m3
PROPOSED DORMER: H2.03 X W5.75 X D4.20 / 2 = 24.51m3

 

If the dimensions are correct I agree with those calculations.

 

The hip to gable is the volume of a triangular base pyramid on its side = 1/3(area of base * height). The area of the base has a further 1/2 in it so yes 1/6(L*W*H) of the hip is correct. 

 

The dormer volume is calculated as half the volume of a rectangular block so again 1/2(L*W*H) of the dormer is correct.

 

The total volume increase is 8.07 + 24.51 = 32.58 cubic meters. That is less than the 40 cubic meter limit for Permitted Development so Planning Permission should not be required for that reason.

 

However there can be other reasons why Planning Permission is needed in here'..

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/830643/190910_Tech_Guide_for_publishing.pdf

 

For example you need PP if any of the following applies..

 

Page 9 - If Permitted Development Rights have been removed.

It is important to note that a local planning authority is allowed to remove permitted development rights in some or all of its area by issuing what is known as an Article 4 Direction; or may have removed those rights on the original, or any subsequent, planning permission for the house.

An Article 4 direction is unlikely unless you are in a conservation areas of area or similar where they are trying to maintain a particular style of house. You will need to ask the planners if your area is subject to an "Article 4 Direction". Also look at the planning history of your house to see if Permitted Development rights have been removed on an earlier application. 

 

Page 33.. 

(c) any part of the dwelling house would, as a result of the works, extend beyond the plane of any existing roof slope which forms the principal elevation of the dwelling house and fronts a highway.

So is the hip to gable or the new dormer on the principle elevation (aka) front of the house? Sometimes its not clear elevation that is.

 

There are also conditions..

Page 35

(a) the materials used in any exterior work shall be of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the exterior of the existing dwelling house.

Page 35 

(b) the enlargement shall be constructed so that –
(i) other than in the case of a hip-to-gable enlargement or an enlargement which joins the original roof to the roof of a rear or side extension –
(aa) the eaves of the original roof are maintained or reinstated; and
(bb) the edge of the enlargement closest to the eaves of the original roof shall, so far as practicable, be not less than 0.2 metres from the eaves, measured along the roof slope from the outside edge of the eaves; and
(ii) other than in the case of an enlargement which joins the original roof to the roof of a rear or side extension, no part of the enlargement extends beyond the outside face of any external wall of the original dwellinghouse

You appear to meet all that

- (i)(aa) and (bb) because you are retaining 0.265m of the roof in front of the new dormer (see also diagram page 36).

- (ii) because you arent extending beyond a wall. 

 

Page 36

(c) any window inserted on a wall or roof slope forming a side elevation of the dwellinghouse shall be -
(i) obscure-glazed, and
(ii) non-opening unless the parts of the window which can be opened are more than 1.7 metres above the floor of the room in which the window is installed

So is the dormer window on the side of the house?

 

I suspect your proposal is covered by Permitted Development but I'm not a/your Planning Officer. The only way to be 100% sure is to apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness. See Page 4..

To be certain that a proposed development is lawful and does not require an application for planning permission it is possible to apply for a ‘Lawful Development Certificate’ from the local authority.

However there is a fee, forms etc.

 

[Temp]

Something else you need to check..

 

Converting the loft makes it a three storey house and the Building Regulations have different rules on escape from fire. You may have to replace doors on the ground floor and worse if any of it is open plan (stairs in living room etc) .  

[Willl]

Thanks guys; so the situation as I understand it is, we shouldn't need planning permission as we are within the conditions including the volume allowance of 40 square meters.

 

To answer your questions as I understand them Temp the extension would be on the back and side and not front and yes the dormer window would be on the side (looking over a narrow path into the side of our neighbours house where there are no windows.. ) I get that the 'Lawful Development Certificate' would provide some certainty I guess I just don't want to spend the money on this if not needed / because of nervousness! Plenty of our neighbours have done loft conversions leaving me feeling that it won't be a problem as long as we do properly and within guidelines..? I'm also thinking if we do this and are then told we need planning permission we would be able to apply retrospectively..?

 

I hadn't thought about how the loft extension could affect building regs for the rest of the house and that they would have a look around there too!

 

 

Can I clarify what you mean here Mr Punter please?

 

"The neighbours would not work with current building regs.  You need at least another 100mm height.  Have you seen the neighbours?"

 

Is this of insulation or the plans posted would be rejected as the height in the rooms / ceiling height is too low?

I have seen the neighbours extension yes and he said that the ceiling height he has is 205 (so I don't know if the plans weren't stuck to strictly.. )

 

Thanks again!

 

Will

[Temp]

1 hour ago, Willl said:

... the dormer window would be on the side (looking over a narrow path into the side of our neighbours house where there are no windows..

 

Is the path a public footpath? Sometimes planners try and argue that an extension on any side facing a highway (and a public footpath counts as a highway) needs PP. However I'm reasonably sure its only the "principle elevation" that matters. The guide says..

 

Principal  elevation”  –  in  most  cases  the principal  elevation will  be  that  part  of  the  house which fronts  (directly  or  at  an angle)  the main  highway  serving the house  (the main highway  will  be the  one that  sets  the postcode  for  the  house concerned).  It  will usually contain the  main architectural  features  such as  main bay  windows  or  a porch serving the main entrance to the  house.  Usually,  but  not  exclusively,  the principal  elevation will  be what  is  understood  to be  the front  of  the house.   There  will  only  be one principal  elevation on a  house.    Where there  are two elevations which may  have the character  of  a principal  elevation,  for  example on a corner  plot,  a view will  need  to be  taken  as  to which  of  these  forms  the principal  elevation. 

 

As the dormer is on the side that means you need obscure glass in the windows to come within Permmitted Development. See page 31 and 36 In the document above. 

 

1 hour ago, Willl said:

I'm also thinking if we do this and are then told we need planning permission we would be able to apply retrospectively..?

 

Yes if they turned up and said you needed PP you could either challenge that or apply for PP retrospectively. There is a risk they could refuse or require changes.. 

 

[Willl]

Thanks Temp! No it isn't a public path and no problem using obscure glass.

 

I was thinking of trying to use the neighbours plans as they are identical to what we want and our property but I am thinking that it makes sense to get new plans drawn up to make sure that they satisfy any new regulations..

[ProDave]

I don't think anyone else has mentioned that will fail building regs.  You need 2 metre headroom for the staircase and the "landing"

[Ferdinand]

Is 100mm enough roof insulation?

 

F

[Mr Punter]

On 03/02/2021 at 22:49, Willl said:

Can I clarify what you mean here Mr Punter please?

 

"The neighbours would not work with current building regs.  You need at least another 100mm height.  Have you seen the neighbours?"

 

Is this of insulation or the plans posted would be rejected as the height in the rooms / ceiling height is too low?

I have seen the neighbours extension yes and he said that the ceiling height he has is 205 (so I don't know if the plans weren't stuck to strictly.. )

 

Yes, if you use the plans from your neighbour they will not meet regs.  There is not enough ceiling height and not enough insulation in the roof.

[Willl]

Okay, thanks guys - it seems that I should get new plans drawn up or at least theses plans checked and amended to make sure I satisfy current building regs.. It is interesting that these plans do not show enough height on the stairs and landing and I think in the rooms too..? Looking at other loft conversions on the street some seem to be slightly higher than the central ridge.. would this contradict this permitted development rule though?

 

• Must not exceed the height of the existing roof.

Thanks again!

 

Will