What’s the alternative

[ProDave]

15 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

 I have looked at the epc and it says heat loss is 18.15kw . I have also looked at the spec of the burner and found that despite the installer telling us it was 18kw it is in fact 14.7kw with 2.2 going to the room and 12.5 to the thermal store. Something is not adding up here,

Under what conditions is the heat loss 18.15kW?

 

If that is a true figure then that is a lot of heat loss and the boiler is too small, but before concluding that give us more information please?

 

Also what sort of stove is this?  I was picturing an automated boiler in a boilerhouse not in a habitable room, in which case they try to emit almost nothing to the room.  Your description sounds more like a WBS with a back boiler?

[Temp]

26 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

I’ve also said I suspect the installer has made a mistake on the spec and that we should have had the larger stove. I will see what response I get from them , I don’t know what else to do but was wondering if the energy savings trust would have anything to say about this since the installer is on their mcs list and also that we got the interest free loan from them for installation. Or do I get an independent engineer to have a look and end up going to a lawyer with it, I just feel I am going to be paying back this loan long after the appliance is binned!

 

If you just want it sorted get an oil boiler fitted. Big enough to do the whole job not just back up the pellet burner.

 

Otherwise I think you need legal advice ASAP as time is probably running out. Find out if you have a case and what it would take to fight it. Mention the credit and ask if the consumer credit act makes the energy saving trust jointly liable (I doubt it).

 

If you can't get advice quickly I would write recorded delivery to the company you purchased the system from (the installer?) stating that the system has never worked as intended and reserving the right to take action if they are unable or unwilling to rectify by date. Give them a fixed period to espond like two or four weeks.

 

Check if your house insurance has legal protection (even if it does it might not help).

 

[recoveringbuilder]

This is the boiler 

[PeterW]

Ok so total kWh for the year is different. Have you got your SAP calculations ..? 

[recoveringbuilder]

Is this them?

[PeterW]

Thanks @recoveringbuilder, there are some discrepancies in those numbers, but lets go with the lower from the RHI of 15,787kWh per annum

 

Based on a reasonable spread and some use of Met Office data. I've got the following :

 

 

	January	February	March	April	May	June	July	August	September	October	November	December
Heat Input	2263	2044	2010	1456	998	354	113	239	721	1504	1823	2263
DHW kWh	214.8	194.0	214.8	207.9	214.8	207.9	214.8	214.8	207.9	214.8	207.9	214.8
Heating kWh	2477.9	2238.1	2224.9	1663.4	1212.8	561.6	327.3	453.8	928.9	1718.8	2030.7	2477.9
Per Day/avg kWh	79.9	79.9	71.8	55.4	39.1	18.7	10.6	14.6	31.0	55.4	67.7	79.9
Hours @ 12.2kW	6.55	6.55	5.88	4.54	3.21	1.53	0.87	1.20	2.54	4.54	5.55	6.55

 

You'll see the bottom line shows the burn time for the boiler in hours - that is a big number in November - March, and by the sounds of it the boiler isn't running flat out so needs to be longer than that in reality. Also, the EPC shows a Primary Energy of 105kWh/m²/year for 269m² but that would equate to 28,245kWh a year which is nearly double what the RHI calculation shows.

 

I would hope someone somewhere has made an error on that number, but... if the RHI number is wrong, it would give even more support to the claim that the calculations are wrong and the boiler is much too small. In fact, if the RHI calculation is that far different to the SAP score I would suggest you may be in the negligence territory and insurers would possibly get involved at this point.

 

Possibly not what you want to hear, but it may help clarify a few things !

 

[recoveringbuilder]

Thanks @PeterW I can follow what you’re saying to a degree (definitely not as technically minded as yourself!) so my next question is; who made the mistake?

if I handed this epc to the installer and he just looked at the bottom part RHI number without doing the calculations that you have done, is he at fault? Or is the person who did the epc at fault? 
The installer had all the house plans as well as the epc so should he have done an independent calculation? Has he been lax in just reading the bottom number?

in other words who the hell do I go after??

[SteamyTea]

If it was a MCS installation I think he had to do a room by room heat loss calculation.

That should have been in the paperwork handed to you when it was completed.

[recoveringbuilder]

25 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If it was a MCS installation I think he had to do a room by room heat loss calculation.

That should have been in the paperwork handed to you when it was completed.

Well I definitely don’t have that , but I do have this 

[newhome]

3 hours ago, recoveringbuilder said:

I don’t know what else to do but was wondering if the energy savings trust would have anything to say about this since the installer is on their mcs list and also that we got the interest free loan from them for installation

They are pretty toothless. As long as someone is on the MCS list (it’s not their list, just anyone who has MCS accreditation) they will approve the loan. They won’t ever recommend a supplier so everyone is stuck with the selection they make unfortunately. You could possibly complain to MCS or via the RHI scheme but I bet they don’t have much power either. 

[newhome]

Oh and if you rip it out or install an alternative heating system you will no longer be eligible for RHI payments but I’m not sure if anyone ever checks whether the kit is installed as it was originally. 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, recoveringbuilder said:

Thanks @PeterW I can follow what you’re saying to a degree (definitely not as technically minded as yourself!) so my next question is; who made the mistake?

if I handed this epc to the installer and he just looked at the bottom part RHI number without doing the calculations that you have done, is he at fault? Or is the person who did the epc at fault? 
The installer had all the house plans as well as the epc so should he have done an independent calculation? Has he been lax in just reading the bottom number?

in other words who the hell do I go after??

Which came first ..?  EPC or the RHI calcs..??

 

Installer also needs to show how he came up with the design too. 

[recoveringbuilder]

I’ve been looking it up, I can make a complaint through the mcs scheme, if what @SteamyTea says is right he should have made calculations for each room which looks like he never did, he was always in a hurry! He even forgot to register it with the scheme at the time it was installed and it was only one I applied for the RHI payments that I discovered that and he had to do some jiggery pokery to get it registered. I now believe he has known all along that it wasn’t going to do the job but has just been fobbing us off and making it look like we didn’t know how to operate it. I have a bee in my bonnet now and need to do something, I’ve spent all day checking the tank , turning heating off then waiting till the tank got up before turning it back on, it’s costing us over £300 a month to keep it going which wouldn’t be so bad if it was giving off a good heat but realistically the upstairs bedrooms are unusable!

[recoveringbuilder]

14 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Which came first ..?  EPC or the RHI calcs..??

 

Installer also needs to show how he came up with the design too. 

I think iirc he wanted the epc before he started the job. At that point we had an epc that was what the house was expected to be if built as specced, after it was installed and details given to the person who was doing the epc we got the as built EPC which then gave the RHI figure . This was the one he was given 

Edited January 6, 2021 by recoveringbuilder
Add information

[PeterW]

Ok have you got the page that shows the expected kWh/m/yr from that one as it’s very different in its score to the As Built. 
 

The as built shows an A rated house with pellets - that is a very odd thing as your 105kW/m2/yr is quite high. 
 

 

[recoveringbuilder]

41 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Ok have you got the page that shows the expected kWh/m/yr from that one as it’s very different in its score to the As Built. 
 

The as built shows an A rated house with pellets - that is a very odd thing as your 105kW/m2/yr is quite high. 
 

 

No other pages! When I asked the architect for the EPC that was all he produced 

[PeterW]

Ok - even so, the boiler should be operating at full tilt for 7 hours a day, getting through 20kg of pellets to give you the heat you need. 
 

How many is it burning a day ..? 30kg..?? So something is out of whack as it is using 50% more pellets but not giving you the heat. 
 

Have they checked the combustion efficiency ..?? Is it burning clean ..?

Edited January 7, 2021 by PeterW
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[recoveringbuilder]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

Ok - even so, the boiler should be operating at full tilt for 7 hours a day, getting through 20kg of pellets to give you the heat you need. 
 

How many is it burning a day ..? 30kg..?? So something is out of whack as it is using 50% more pellets but not giving you the heat. 
 

Have they checked the combustion efficiency ..?? Is it burning clean ..?

It burns well although needs a hoover out about every 3 days which we put down to the amount it’s burning, it did go out a few nights ago without warning ( an alarm is meant to sound if there is a problem) and on inspection we found the pot that the pellets burn in was all clogged up. 
when we had the new motherboard fitted the cover of said had melted! 

[PeterW]

I think the tank controls are not right - wonder if it’s wired up incorrectly. I would start by upping the thermostats to 65°C when they should cut in.  
 

Also I have vague (possibly wrong..?) memories about this TS having a couple of funky TMVs in it somewhere to balance off the flows ..?? Or was that someone else’s ..?? 
 

 

[recoveringbuilder]

Latest development with this saga, have filled in a complaint form to Hetas who the installer is registered with and awaiting further word back from them. 
Previous to this I had emailed firepower heating who are the distributor for the stove in this country and gave them a rundown of what had been happening. They answered with a recommendation that I contact the installer again. 
Hetas had by this recognised that communication between us and him had broken down so I didn’t try again to contact him. Got another email from firepower today asking if I had contacted the installer, I replied saying no I hadn’t and that I had gone to Hetas, I also told them that we had spent the last few days in a house which wasn’t being heated properly and had resulted in frozen pipes in 2 of the ensuites, very quickly she came back to me and said she had spoken to the installer and that he would contact me shortly. I then receive an email from him questioning the performance of the ufh(which he didn’t install) Quote; Can you check the following and let me know.

*    What is the target temperature of the boiler
*    Power output of the boiler.
*    The manifold will have a mixer on it that will control max temp to
the UFH what is this set to.



There maybe an issue with the valves that control the delivery of heat to
the manifold. (heat height selector and UFH mixer valve)

So it appears he is trying to pass the buck, we are confident that the ufh is working fine when it gets the temperature required from the tank and how would he explain the fact that there’s not enough heat to heat ufh and upstairs radiators?

[recoveringbuilder]

Still trying to get my head around all this, heard back from Hetas today, wanting me and the installer to communicate with each other so I have answered his email questions. However it was still annoying me what @PeterW had said about the figures on the EPC so I did some digging around online and found a post by a man who does EPCs. He said he had a few complaints from people regarding their kwh figures and at first he suspected they wanted the figures to be higher so that they would get paid more through the RHI scheme however he contacted a colleague who did heat load calculations for installers and he soon discovered where the discrepancies lay. He states that installers have to calculate on a worst case scenario,so they have to make a calculation that assumes the heating will be on 24/7 365 days a year, he also says that the RHI would never pay you for this as they prefer to pay some money to a lot of people rather than a lot of money to a few people so the calculations for RHI payments are not a true picture of your heat demand and are just taken as an average. So this left me thinking that the two figures on my EPC would always be conflicting. Considering the installer never saw this EPC it makes me wonder if he didn’t do any calculations at all for this house and took a guess based on previous similar sized properties that received RHI payments. 

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

Considering the installer never saw this EPC it makes me wonder if he didn’t do any calculations at all for this house and took a guess based on previous similar sized properties that received RHI payments. 

I bet you this is the case !! Ask for his calculations and I think you’ll find your answer ...

[recoveringbuilder]

Thought I’d resurrect this thread again as a warning to anyone thinking of having an installation done by an mcs, Hetas and Recc registered installer, do not be lulled into a false sense of security!

carrying on from where we were the installer paid a visit in late January, he spent 5 hours looking over the boiler and making various adjustments however there was no improvement.

In March Hetas sent an inspector who very quickly got to the route of the problem. Along with other small incidental omissions it turned out that the boiler had never been fitted with an air intake duct so was in fact a danger to us and was marked as do not use. Hetas have no power to make installers do anything and definitely not to remove and reimburse you which was what I was looking for by this time as the condition of the boiler had deteriorated due to continuous burning.

The installer couldn’t supply any calculations as he clearly hadn’t done them but in reality we had found the cause of all the problems we’d been experiencing. The installer wanted to come and install the air intake and as far as he was concerned that would be his obligation fulfilled but we would then have been left to carry the can for all the ongoing repairs it was needing which were going to be a lot so we refused to allow him back and closed the complaint with Hetas. 
We then moved on to the Recc who at first appeared to be going to be more helpful, they asked what outcome we were looking for and we said we wanted it removed and a refund. They contacted the installer and requested that he do this- to no avail, we were then put on to arbitration, paid £120 for the pleasure, put forward our case, we were no longer complaining about the lack of performance but about the incorrect installation and the fact that our home and our lives had been put at risk. I submitted 19 pieces of evidence including the report from Hetas and photos of the state the boiler was now in, the installer was allowed his defence in which he questioned the nature of the complaint, he believed we were still complaining about the lack of heat, he made several comments about our ability to project manage the build, he accused us of throwing all the trades into the ring to sort themselves out, accused us of not building the house to the spec originally stated, accused other trades or ourselves of removing the air supply, accused us of having no understanding of house building and so it went on. I replied to all of it in the negative and commented that he was questioning the integrity of everyone involved in the build in an effort to save his own skin. I showed everything to various people who could all see what he was up to, everyone apart from the arbitrator!

Today I received the award from the arbitrator, I am supposed to allow him back to install the air supply, to install the air supply which he omitted to install nearly 3 years ago, to a boiler which has now been through the mill and is on its last legs, to a boiler that he couldn’t find anything  wrong with on his various visits. If I allow him to do this and it still doesn’t work properly  he has then to refund me!

so I let him come in and make all the holes he needs to install this and then we have to patch it all up, in all probability the boiler would have been fine if he had correctly installed it to start with at the time before plasterboarding etc had been done, it’s also possible that it would work fine if I allowed him to do this but it’s knackered, plates inside are disintegrated, runners off the feed drawer , drawer front broken, screw feed probably needs replaced and igniter, it’s out of warranty now so this would all be down to us. We’re left £14k out of pocket, have 7 years left to pay on a loan from energy savings trust and will have to fork out for a new system. The arbitrator completely ignored the complaint about the incorrect installation and reverted back to the original complaint made to Hetas about the performance which was not what I had asked them to look at. If I want to dispute the award I have to go to the high court in London even although I and the installer are in Scotland. What a mess! I have now bitten the bullet and contacted a litigation solicitor as I am determined not to let this go.

[CC45]

good luck.  So hard to find good people .....

[Declan52]

How was it supplying enough air to keep the fire going without the intake duct?? 

You have been really through the mill and badly let down by the installer and now the complaints procedure. I don't blame you for not wanting to drop this.