ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 You will probably recall that I had a timber frame house built few years ago. We have now lived in the house for 2.5 years and have experienced a problem recently. Our master ensuite is on the first floor, approx 2.8m * 2.45m of which a section of 2.45 * 1m is a walk in shower. The shower tray was a former and for this we had requested the joists under the tray to be shorter allowing for a 40mm recess to set the tray inside. The rest of the bathroom is on regular joists running in the 2.45m direction. I think the joists are set at 600mm centres. The bathroom has been tiled using 10mm thick porcelain tiles. The 22mm chipboard on the joists is covered by 18mm marine ply and the tiles attached used a 12mm bed of adhesive. Noggings have been installed between joists to stabilise them. Over the past 2.5 years the tiles are now popping loose. We have lifted the tiles today and found that the adhesive is completely cracked but firmly attached to the tiles. It has largely separated from the ply. There is a reasonable amount of flex in the floor and the tiler is of the opinion that there is excessive flex and unless this flex is eliminated,the problem could reoccur. Does anyone have any experience of this and are there any ways to eliminate this problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Could you kiss goodbye to the tiled floor and fit a bespoke shower tray? https://www.versital.co.uk/bathroom-products-2/bespoke-shower-trays/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Was a decoupling mat like Ditra used originally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Why is such a short span flexing? Why did you need to recess for the former? We used an Impey former (and tanking system) and the former fits within the 22mm of a normal floor board so same joists everywhere, and the Impey tanking membrane acts as a decoupler so okay to lay that on chipboard then tile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Was the ply primed correctly ..? And was it a flexible latex based adhesive ..? I can’t see how a 40mm laminated floor would flex over a 2.8m span to cause tile popping. Was the marine ply properly glued and screwed to the chipboard and joists below ..?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 41 minutes ago, ryder72 said: You will probably recall that I had a timber frame house built few years ago. We have now lived in the house for 2.5 years and have experienced a problem recently. Our master ensuite is on the first floor, approx 2.8m * 2.45m of which a section of 2.45 * 1m is a walk in shower. The shower tray was a former and for this we had requested the joists under the tray to be shorter allowing for a 40mm recess to set the tray inside. The rest of the bathroom is on regular joists running in the 2.45m direction. I think the joists are set at 600mm centres. The bathroom has been tiled using 10mm thick porcelain tiles. The 22mm chipboard on the joists is covered by 18mm marine ply and the tiles attached used a 12mm bed of adhesive. Noggings have been installed between joists to stabilise them. Over the past 2.5 years the tiles are now popping loose. We have lifted the tiles today and found that the adhesive is completely cracked but firmly attached to the tiles. It has largely separated from the ply. There is a reasonable amount of flex in the floor and the tiler is of the opinion that there is excessive flex and unless this flex is eliminated,the problem could reoccur. Does anyone have any experience of this and are there any ways to eliminate this problem? Not much comfort We stoped using marine ply quite a few years ago Its all Ditra matting directly onto the chipboard Never had any issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr Punter said: Could you kiss goodbye to the tiled floor and fit a bespoke shower tray? https://www.versital.co.uk/bathroom-products-2/bespoke-shower-trays/ The shower tray is not the problem. its the tiling in the rest of the room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 Replying to various messages - No matting used. I did a quick scan of the Ditra matting and I cant see how it would have helped in this particular situation. Marine ply was used to build up the floor and provide additional rigidity. It was screwed down to the joists through the chipboard using gold screws at 100mm intervals. I will check about the gluing of the ply. But screwing down - yes. Admittedly the ply may not be glued. Is that likely to make it less effective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassanclan Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 You can't really tell what the root of the problem is until you get a few tiles up and see if the floor is actually moving 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, ryder72 said: The shower tray is not the problem. its the tiling in the rest of the room Take up the tiles and fit LVT. Much nicer underfoot. Looks fantastic. You can make up any height difference easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, bassanclan said: You can't really tell what the root of the problem is until you get a few tiles up and see if the floor is actually moving The movement is very minor, but its there. there is definite deflection when stood in between two joists along the midway point in the room. The joists go from an external wall to a steel. I am surprised how much deflection there is on just a 2.4m section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: Take up the tiles and fit LVT. Much nicer underfoot. Looks fantastic. You can make up any height difference easily. Its a wet room. Not an option now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 18 minutes ago, ryder72 said: Its a wet room. Not an option now. Some wetroom vinyl flooring then? It can be stuck down, sealed at edges and will not crack or lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryder72 Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 49 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: Some wetroom vinyl flooring then? It can be stuck down, sealed at edges and will not crack or lift. Is this what you mean? https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kimptonflooring.co.uk%2Fadvice%2Fadvice.htm&psig=AOvVaw0eeVa1r7BMOCYzCGVMOi7p&ust=1597929845569000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwjWt-vXrqfrAhVQEGMBHbzBBX0Qr4kDegUIARC0Ag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Tarkett, Polyflor and several others do it. Non slip and no leaks. It can look a bit institutional if you do not choose wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 On 19/08/2020 at 12:47, nod said: Not much comfort We stoped using marine ply quite a few years ago Its all Ditra matting directly onto the chipboard Never had any issues Holy thread resurrection batman! Quick one bud, or for anyone else in the know whom has an opinion: I have just finished laying the pug screed for my 1st floor UFH so the floor make-up is currently - - joists (400 centres) - 22mm caberdeck - 35mm pug screed - ? I am due to lay the next layer, 22mm caberdeck on top but I'm now pondering the ramifications for later on when I come to tile the bathrooms. With this 22mm/35mm/22mm sandwich can I tile straight onto the top layer of OSB provided dittra matting goes down first and flexible adhesives are used as per the quote? So my floor make-up would be: - joists (400 centres) - 22mm caberdeck - 35mm pug screed - 22mm caberdeck - dittra decoupling layer - tiles This is one of those, 'I hadn't considered the knock on effects for later jobs' situations! Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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