ICF resale value

[Jake85]

Hi all

Just stumbled across this forum. I am currently looking at a potential development of 3 sets of semi detached houses. I was wondering on the resale value of properties built via ICF method. Are these usually priced in line with standard construction for same spec and size? Has anyone much experience reselling these buildings? Any difficulties? 

Thank you

[ToughButterCup]

An estate agent, asked to value our current house , offered an opinion (but not a valuation) on the house I'm building in what used to be our orchard. We are building in Durisol. 

In his estimation build method,  while a consideration for some,  is not a strong determinant of price. 

Why? Because you can't see the build method. 

[Jake85]

Thank you for this. I was hoping it wouldn't effect the price negatively. If anything more eco friendly home, cheaper to run. Have a positive impact maybe? I get what your saying, the houses planning to build will be rendered externally, plastered internally. So as you say, would look identical to other houses. 

[Bitpipe]

Property usually sells on location, space, fancy kitchens and bathrooms, council tax band etc..

 

As long as a mortgage can be raised against it, there should be no issue. No-one will ask about the build method. 

 

Good SAP ratings (e.g. A or B) and energy saving investments will probably not drive interest from a sale perspective as purchasers will not place much value on them - if you can express them as 'low running cost' then maybe they'll notice but if they're marketed as 'eco houses' then expect that to turn some people off as there is a perception that they require a lifestyle change (e.g. 'you can never open the windows' ' 'too many complicated gadgets to manage' etc...).

 

Sad as it is, a load of LED strips that can be controlled from your iPhone will be more of interest than a decent heat recovery system, low airtightness etc..

[Jake85]

Thanks again for the feedback. This is really reassuring. I was thinking of going fairly high spec, family houses. To increase sailability. Iv been told there are a selection of lenders that can be accessed through brokers easy enough. Was told I may struggle BTL mortgage thought ltd company tho. 

[Bitpipe]

Just now, Jake85 said:

Thanks again for the feedback. This is really reassuring. I was thinking of going fairly high spec, family houses. To increase sailability. Iv been told there are a selection of lenders that can be accessed through brokers easy enough. Was told I may struggle BTL mortgage thought ltd company tho. 

 

Depends what you mean by high spec - do you mean things that are tangible to the purchaser (like a kitchen) or stuff that's inherent in the house fabric? 

 

Many of us here who have self built a home for life will have invested in things that do not provide a compelling ROI but materially improve our standard of living.

 

Whether that makes sense in a commercial development is a different decision but if you use ICF you'll have a well insulated and airtight shell which is a big step towards creating a low energy environment. 

 

I'd think carefully on the ventilation, cooling and heating requirements & strategy for these houses as if a bog standard heating system with lots of rads is thrown into a low energy envelope then they will not be required even in the lows of winter and you risk significant overheating from spring to autumn. However will buyers be comfortable with a house that has UFH and no rads in bedrooms? 

 

MVHR is worth considering but you need to ensure it does not become a turn off for purchasers (majority of people will not understand that filters need to be changed etc...).

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

Low running costs appear to be of marginal concern to almost all buyers - two estate agents have told us that. And, I have often heard others who build locally, that houses built to the minimum current specification are very cheap to run. So, the logic goes, why bother with a U value that's as low as passivhaus.

 

As for MVHR ?  Ya wot? Whassat?   The need to explain it to all but a few says all you need to know. I can count the number of visitors to our build  who knew about MVHR on one of my hands (of which two fingers have been amputated)

[Budgie]

It's an interesting question actually. I understand in North America where ICF is more mainstream, resale values of ICF homes can be higher due to the lower heating / cooling costs that are achieved for the lifetime of the building. In the UK I don't believe we have seen this yet but if an owner of an ICF home was to retain their energy bills and able to prove the lower running costs that would surely be a great selling point wouldn't it?

[ProDave]

A lot of very sound building methods of the past have been labelled as "non standard construction" and virtually unmortgagable.  I do wonder how many "modern eco" designs will get that label?  Our own house, timber framed and clad with EWI and render could well be lumped into that category, as could any timber framed timber clad house.

 

Some time ago we were looking for a cheap property when we first moved here. We looked at a couple of old timber framed timber clad houses and found although they looked sound they were unmortgagable.  So my suspicion is these types of house will be mortgagable when new, but in the future as they start to be perceived as "old" may not be.

 

You are tight that buyers don't even care about the EPC rating of a house at the moment.  That is something that has got to change with houses with a poor EPC and high heating costs surely should be worth less. But that is not the case at the moment.

 

No heating upstairs?  I suspect you are right, buyers will be afraid of that.  Perhaps sell the house in winter so they can actually see the bedrooms are warm with no heating then they might believe it?

[Jake85]

That's a very good idea about timing when to sell to feel the benefit and see for themselves how warm the property is. The heating/ventilation side of things I do need to look into. I do have a mechanical ventilation unit in my own standard built home, to help with mould etc within my home. But it's a subject I need to research more. Architect suggested heat pumps but it's something I will need to look at what other similar builds have used and how effective they are. Information is definitely the key. 

[ProDave]

Heat pumps are still not understood by most.  At least twice people visiting have seen mine at the back of the house and said something like "is it really worth having air conditioning up here?"

[nod]

Sad fact is most buyers won't care about how energy Efficient the house is Most wont know what ICF is 

Price 

Location 

M2

 

 

[nod]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Heat pumps are still not understood by most.  At least twice people visiting have seen mine at the back of the house and said something like "is it really worth having air conditioning up here?"

Your right there Dave 

We rendered a site of 60 back in 2008 and even the lads on site Including myself referred to the units as Aircon

 

Though it is worth pointing out while most sites had shut down at the start of the recession 

These subsidized Eco homes sold like hot cakes 

First TF houses I’d worked on locally for about ten years 

(Scottish) 

[Jake85]

Well iv emailed lots of different suppliers of different methods of ICF now to try and start doing some loose costings for supply and supply and build. So hopefully once they start to come in I can then make a decision. The speed in which these type of builds can be turned around is definitely appealing. Especially if no known issues with the resale values too. Just hope the sums add up as it would be a nice thing to develop

[ToughButterCup]

22 minutes ago, Jake85 said:

... The speed in which these type of builds can be turned around is...

 

... for us perceived speed of build (on the part of the builder) was problematic. It fostered a lack of accuracy. I don't wish to imply that that might be the case for you Jake. That initial build inaccuracy has only just been corrected by a magician plasterer. 

My own lack of confidence played a significant role too. Now, I would check every single course of blocks for line and level. Neither would I allow a pour without appropriate shuttering.

It's always the same : Devil in the Detail, or as @Ferdinand has it, God's in the Detail.

(That Ferdi, he must be Shockin' Holy)

[scottishjohn]

If its make money ,then i agree with all that has been said 

when i was considering selling my house --estate agent asked me If icould remove the solar panels easily ,as that would reduce interest and value 

 

for profit go for basic required insualtion levels and if you have the choice -then mains gas heating 

 

 are these going to be a row of semis  houses --if So i thinkthat ICF  like durisol or isotex will be a good choice --but you need to send finished plans to suppliers as that is the only way they can quote you correctly and maybe will suggest slight  changes to make them hceaper/ easier to build

bound to be discount if you are buying more at one time

certainly if you built them all at once -

-the walls =founds that is

then there should be good savings on the concrete and pump hire charges as well

proper finished plans -send to suppliers and ask for quotes and suggestions on how to do it cheaper would be my view 

 even if you can only afford to do the founds+-services and walls at first go --that will be cheapest way to do it for sure in the long run-certianly

at least all founds and services then you half way there --no more diggers and mud plugging and get hardcore road in 

If your council are like mine they will not allow occupation in ANY of them till roads are up to council spec if you have to make roads +drainage etc 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by scottishjohn

[Jake85]

Thank you. Iv had a quote from Durisol for the bricks now, rough numbers. And from Isotex per square m. Need to factor in all other costs now but looks like will be around 100k for complete builds. Maybe a bit more depending on heating system used. Not connected to gas or mains sewerage there unfortunately. All the input is great from everyone as it's such a big gamble and investment need to be sure. But it's definitely looking preferred as opposed to standard construction. 

[joth]

4 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

As for MVHR ?  Ya wot? Whassat?   The need to explain it to all but a few says all you need to know. I can count the number of visitors to our build  who knew about MVHR on one of my hands (of which two fingers have been amputated)

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Heat pumps are still not understood by most.  At least twice people visiting have seen mine at the back of the house and said something like "is it really worth having air conditioning up here?"

 

So this is begging for a cost effective combined MVHR + external heatpump + heat exchanger, not because it's an efficient system design but because it will really turn this conversation around into an active sales pitch: "Aircon in every room!" (except it's not really A/C, it's better than that, but trying to explain that sends you back down the "whhaaasat?" path again).

 

A different tact:

In my childhood (in the 80s) the must-have was upgrading older house to "central heating". Perhaps MVHR should rebrand as "central air". 

 

 

 

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, Jake85 said:

Thank you. Iv had a quote from Durisol for the bricks now, rough numbers. And from Isotex per square m. Need to factor in all other costs now but looks like will be around 100k for complete builds. Maybe a bit more depending on heating system used. Not connected to gas or mains sewerage there unfortunately. All the input is great from everyone as it's such a big gamble and investment need to be sure. But it's definitely looking preferred as opposed to standard construction. 

Idon,t know where it is --but terraced houses would give a better return maybe?--you will get a lot more with less materials 

[ProDave]

5 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

If its make money ,then i agree with all that has been said 

when i was considering selling my house --estate agent asked me If icould remove the solar panels easily ,as that would reduce interest and value 

 

 

That one baffles me as well.

 

A friend looked at a nice detached house with 4kWp solar PV on the original high FIT rate, plus a paddock.

She pulled out of the purchase when the surveyor suggested the roof may not be strong enough for the solar PV

And the paddock was outside the village envelope so she "wouldn't be able to do anything with it"

 

She ended up buying a smaller semi detached house.  I did my best to try and tell her how much she would earn from the remainder of the FIT contract.

[Jake85]

The builds will be in South lincs. I don't think the plot is wide enough really for terrace houses. 

[Jake85]

My front runners are currently Isotex and thermohouse. And green life buildings because they are local to here. 

[Bitpipe]

I considered Thermohouse  - decent product and it has floor and roof elements as well as wall, however you will be building a passive standard house from an airtightness and insulation point of view so you need to think carefully of the implications on heating and cooling - including glazing and orientation - too much solar gain and your units will be like ovens year round, even when it's cool outside.

 

If you're off mains gas then solar PV, ASHP and low temp UFH are going to be the way to go - assuming decent windows & doors, those houses will need next to no heat in winter and you may need active cooling in summer (air con).

 

If the house is inherently airtight then you'll need active ventilation such as MVHR to meet building regs, trickle vents in windows may not be sufficient.

 

Do you have plans drawn up yet for this development, planning etc?

 

If not then I think you're putting the cart before the horse wrt build system, lots to consider before you get that far.

[ToughButterCup]

22 hours ago, Jake85 said:

Thank you. Iv had a quote from Durisol for the bricks now ... 

Quote

And green life buildings because they are local to here

 

Just a quick heads up from bitter Durisol experience. If you under order, or smash too many blocks, or otherwise find that you've insufficient, getting another load delivered is not the same as popping down to the BM for some more.

It's (was) a trip down to Crumlin in a hired  wagon for us.  And just in case you have to, make sure its a flat bed wagon. The blocks aren't heavy - but 500 blocks is a lot of handballing when a material handler could have had access to a flatbed. 

I lost my fingerprints for about a week - even with gloves. Fairly fit upper-body strength now though......

 

The point you make about Green Life could be very important.

Edited July 24, 2020 by ToughButterCup

[Jake85]

It's hard trying to weigh up which is best polystyrene or the block type method. Having conversations with architect along side these discussions, just want to make sure putting alot of thought in and comparing the difference.