Carrerahill Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Quick background story. I ripped apart my old kitchen yesterday now that the extension kitchen is more or less complete, ceiling came down, floor is coming up today and the first task is to move water services to their permanent location. I'll be removing 100% of the old waste pipes and relocating the stop cock later today too. Until now the old kitchen has back-fed the extension via the bathroom supplies, as of today I ought to be feeding the whole house from the new kitchen and the pipework removed that used to head from the old kitchen. The easiest and safest way for me was to remove much of the old pipework. However it has turned into a heck of a job because I ended up ended up needing to remove all the bathroom plumbing and discovered a few little surprises along the way. I had bought copper to do it all but realistically this is going to take a long time as I have to make up about 9 feeds to things, I have to come across the ceiling of the old kitchen and with copper and soldering, my preferred method it will take me probably all day. To run the pipes across the ceiling I am going to need to notch the bottom of each joist and chisel out a protective plate gap, fit 2 15mm pipes, install the plates, solder it all up, which means pretty much spot on alignment to ensure the joints sit unstressed and the whole think just sounds bad. So I am looking at the plastic pipe I also have here (I bought 3m as I suspected I may need to snake a 1m section in behind a toilet) and I see how bendy it is, I could literally drill each joist, feed the pipe in as it bends so freely, and be across the ceiling, much higher up the joist so in the safe zone in about 25minutes, but I cannot bring myself to use plastic. I just don't trust it and I don't know why not. Here is the other thing, the pipe and inserts I have here as sold to me by my merchant don't seem right. JG fittings you have the push the insert in, the insert mechanically supporting the pipe so it cannot just deform or crush when in a fitting, these inserts are a rattle fit. How can they possibly work? I questioned this and a plumber and they thought it was OK. Well sorry, that just doesn't make sense, I may as well not fit them if they offer no internal support? So here I am, deliberating what could be a hard days work, or a very hard days work. Did I also mention I need to do all this and re-board the ceiling and walls today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 any chance you've accidently got 16mm pipe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 28 minutes ago, dpmiller said: any chance you've accidently got 16mm pipe? I'm going to say no, but always the chance, I will check. I had this issue about a year ago with the same stuff - not even sure the make, just the stuff they stock - not happy about that now as I don't know who's it is therefore is it cheap tat! I have been reading since I posted, was going to go for Hep but local SF only have 1 3m length in stock, plenty JG - tempted to do two JG runs across the ceiling. £9 in pipe, some susperseal inserts and some 90's (which I have in stock as I plumbed a sink with it in a garage area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Inserts should not rattle, a good tight push fit otherwise they won’t do their job. I am a convert to plastic from copper (took a long while) not having joins and flexible pipe is great for pulling through places that copper would have to have loads of joints/bends etc. Also not having many 90’ bends make flow so much better. Also I am a Hep 2O convert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiBee Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Are the pipe and inserts the same brand? I have never come across a “sloppy” fit? some are really hard to push in (dry) You are correct in questioning this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Ok so ... I won’t use Speedfit as the quality is not as good as Hep2O. If it rattles, it’s the wrong insert. I wouldn’t hesitate to use plastic in a ceiling - as you say it’s a single run and no joins to leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wozza Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) I have used loads of JG pipe and fittings - easy to use and the layflat pipe is much more flexible than the normal stuff. I like the cold form bends, they are great for tight bends. Edited July 11, 2020 by wozza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperJohnG Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 As above there is a definite mismatch. As for plastic....less joins(means less chance for leaks), cheaper, easier to use. Apart from aesthetics plastic,.in my opinion is better in every way. I've done quite a number of jobs with plastic pipe and my plumber mate uses plastic everywhere except where it can be seen then uses copper for a nice finish. But thats the only reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Sounds like the wrong pipe. I plumbed my whole house in Speedfit and they have two types of inserts, a plain plastic one and one with 'O' rings built in. Both are a very snug fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 8 hours ago, PeterStarck said: Sounds like the wrong pipe. I plumbed my whole house in Speedfit and they have two types of inserts, a plain plastic one and one with 'O' rings built in. Both are a very snug fit. Did you fit the little horse clips after tightening the fittings? IIRC you used the blue / red combos. Funny that folk all mention JG stuff but NEVER mention the clips that stop the crap design from undoing and flooding your house...... These wee beasties Forget these at your peril. PS I only use Hepworth as its bomb-proof, and doesn't have such flaws, or such thick inserts, either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Nick, I've been around JG and their collets for what? 30 years on gas air and fluid systems. How come you see problems with their domestic water fittings that don't occur anywhere else? How do these fittings leak? If it's fully inserted and under pressure, the pipe aint coming out... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Difference there is a three stage process to fit a JG fitting - insert the pipe, check and then rotate the collet, finally adding the clip to stop the pipe removal clip being depressed. Hep2O is a single process, and you cannot accidentally catch the release mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 no, the rotate bit disables the collet in the same way as the horseshoe stop. So why have I been successfully just pushing pipe into fitting-s per the MIs- of mission critical fittings for years and (other than pipe collapse of vinyl and nylon pressure tube and hardening of O-rings) never see leak or failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 Because you’re doing it on hundreds and are doing it professionally...? I’ve seen a lot of these installed where the collet is not done up - the horse shoe is to show it has been done up correctly - it is why it should be fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Now I'm gonna strip a connector today to confirm it to myself but it's my belief that the collet doesnt get "done up" on the white domestic stuff. The collet bites into the pipe automatically and grips tighter as line pressure increases like with any pushfit. All the twist does is move the outer stop such that the collet won't depress surely? The horseshoe clip has been used as a positive *lock* for years on the beige and black systems. regardless I'm still waiting to hear exactly what has been happening to cause Nick's comment: " the crap design from undoing and flooding your house "... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Did you fit the little horse clips after tightening the fittings? IIRC you used the blue / red combos. Funny that folk all mention JG stuff but NEVER mention the clips that stop the crap design from undoing and flooding your house...... I fitted the the clips and as you say I used different colours. That is the reason I like Speedfit for DIY because it's foolproof. If you haven't tightened/twisted the fitting then you can't fit the clip. The clip isn't needed from a safe fitting point of view because it requires some effort to untwist the fitting and knocking it certainly won't release the pipe. It's funny nobody mentions the fact that you need a special device to undo Hep2O fittings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Lol, ok, yes you need a tool to compress the grip ring if you wish to demount a Hep fitting. So; Funny that nobody mentions that when you enjoy the tool-less extraction of JG pipe from a JG fitting, the poxy inserts stay stuck in the fittings and then you have to disassemble and reassemble to go fetch it. 30 - 15......new balls please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 ...still waiting to hear about them undoing themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 hours ago, dpmiller said: ...still waiting to hear about them undoing themselves... There is that gem also. With JG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Just now, Nickfromwales said: There is that gem also. With JG. yes, tell us then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Funny that nobody mentions that when you enjoy the tool-less extraction of JG pipe from a JG fitting, the poxy inserts stay stuck in the fittings and then you have to disassemble and reassemble to go fetch it. 30 - 15......new balls please! If that happens when you have used Speedfit it must just be lack of experience. It's not a problem I've found using it. Set and match. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I demand a re-match !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, dpmiller said: yes, tell us then. Well......they undo themselves...... Almost every instance I see of JG being used nobody has used the clips to stop the fitting from undoing itself. If the clip is used then I assume all is well. Just another component to buy, fit etc and without it the system is infinitely more likely to fail vs Hep2o. Every job I go to that's got JG stuff there, more so with the 15mm than the 22m for whatever reason, I see fittings which have either not been tightened from the get-go, or ones that have moved with heat / cool cycles and are all but completely undone. I genuinely do cringe when I see this and wonder ho much longer they would stay like that before popping off. The do all seem to get to a oint where they stop undoing and just stay there, but Hep just doesn't suffer from these issues at all. Cut pipe, fit insert, push it in and you're done. That's it. They even have a clever knurle on the face of the insert so you can twist the pipe and feel it 'bumping' against the seat of the fitting, letting you know you have pushed it 100% home. Hep for me, and nobody will ever persuade me otherwise. If anyone is in doubt, buy a small selection of both and decide for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 so the irrelevant twisty bit unscrews and the self-tightening conical collet with the barbed teeth still holds firm? not seeing a problem there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 29 minutes ago, dpmiller said: the irrelevant twisty bit NO and NO....it's what holds the ring with the teeth in place!! ? Without that you'd better have good buildings and contents insurance. It ONLY self tightens when the fitting compresses itself back against the flat shoulder provided by said "irrelevant twisty bit". The barrel inside the fitting is parallel edged, NOT tapered, and nothing in there is self-tightening. I suggest you buy one and take it apart and see for yourself before offering any further assumptions. Better still, ring JG and ask them how 'irrelevant' it is and get it straight from the horses mouth, or maybe they can save themselves £m's of wasted parts and labour adding it for no reason and do what Hepworth do...... They will tell you how important that 'twisty bit' actually is of course . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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