Designing a ceiling for home cinema - projectorscreen, speakers, sound insulation, misc?

[puntloos]

TL;DR: how would you design a noise-insulating ceiling that can carry a recessed projection screen and speakers?
Ideally would love to see an actual design of a ceiling - which layers did you use, thicknesses?

 

Longer:
Building a house from scratch. Timberframe. Passivhaus-ish insulation levels. Underfloor heating. Above the cinemaliving, there are bathrooms and bedrooms.

 

Sadly I know very little about how a timberframe ceiling looks, and how much space for 'equipment' there is. 

 

Projector screen:
Spec sheet for projection screen: https://www.jp-uk.co.uk/media/product_pdfs/major-tensioned-datasheet.pdf

- The cassette+bracket is 139mm but I'd like the 'dangling part' to be recessed as well, if I can. Not sure if it fully retracts so I should probably aim for 150mm

- A wooden beam to screw the screen into is ideal? Needs to carry 36kg with 4 brackets, 4 screws per bracket, and of course needs to be in a spot where projector screen would be!

Like so:

- Do you guys think I could use "wall mounting" setup and screw it to the side of a beam? What should I tell my architect/builder/TimberFrameCompany?

Just a randon pic, but the joists seem to be as deep as the beams so no way to fit a screen cassette to the side of a beam, just directly under it? Or?

Spec sheet for in-ceiling speakers: https://mksound.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/IC95_intro_A4_rev3_feb20195b15d.pdf

- MK IC95 - IC95 In-Wall/In-Ceiling - the can (pictured) seems to be 212mm:

They can probably partially fit between joists?

 

Any thoughts much appreciated...

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by puntloos

[Conor]

Interesting. I'm planning a cinema / games room in our basement.

 

Two of the four walls are ICF, so good sound dampening there. For the walls in ceiling, I'm planning on using old office partition walls. They are 18mm MDF covered in thick, soft blue fabric. We were moving offices last month and they were up for grabs, so took them all! Hope to use them to clad the walls and form the suspended ceiling. Between the joists and slab, I'll put in some rockwool. The kitchen and boot room are doextly above so I'm not that worried. I'll use a thick curtain to separate the cinema area off from the rest of the play by room.

 

I think it will be about 4.3m wide and 6m long in the end. Not though much about AV, but not going too fancy projector and a couple big speakers will do the trick.

 

You could have another void below your main floor structure? Insulate between the joists and counter batten to lower the ceiling and leave room for services, speakers etc.  You don't need a high ceiling in a cinema room

[nod]

You will have to hang a ceiling below the floor 

Forget about timber an MF ceiling 

set out on a 400 x 600 grid will give you the void and soundproofing that you need 

 

If you look on the BG website they do a bracket set on rubbers that you can fix to the underside of the floor which allows you to attach a threaded bar 

Board the underside of the floor with two layers of SB

Leaving the bars popping through 

Simply set your laser and trim the bars say 200 mil down and add a mf ceiling below Insulate and board with two layers of SB 
 

I can’t remember doing this on a house But I’ve used this on conference rooms and quite a few schools 

If there’s room they normally ask for the the finished ceiling to be sloping towards the projector 

Not sure why 

 

Bit long winded but BG will have a booklet with all the details 

 

[puntloos]

Thanks @Conor, sounds pretty good!
 

3 hours ago, nod said:

You will have to hang a ceiling below the floor 

Forget about timber

No TF?

3 hours ago, nod said:

an MF ceiling 

better for sound?

 

3 hours ago, nod said:

set out on a 400 x 600 grid will give you the void and soundproofing that you need 

I'm not sure what you mean, 400x600 as a side view? Or do you mean the full ceiling will be 400mm deep?

 

3 hours ago, nod said:

 

If you look on the BG website they do a bracket set on rubbers that you can fix to the underside of the floor which allows you to attach a threaded bar 

https://www.bgelectrical.uk/ 

3 hours ago, nod said:

Board the underside of the floor with two layers of SB

Leaving the bars popping through 

Simply set your laser and trim the bars say 200 mil down and add a mf ceiling below Insulate and board with two layers of SB 
 

Basically you're saying simply making the ceiling 200mm taller than 'planned', yes?

3 hours ago, nod said:

Bit long winded but BG will have a booklet with all the details 

 

[Reiver]

OK, from the list on the link, which size screen are you going for? And how far away will you be sitting? If it's biggish/you're close in and you want a realistic effect  you would be better going for speakers either side (+ centre speaker behind/underneath) - otherwise it may seem a tad odd to have the sound coming obviously from above. And BTW, smallish speakers like those won't have a lot of bass response so you'll want a subwoofer tucked away somewhere..... and maybe surround speakers behind?

Regarding insulation to above, unless you are going to go massively heavy/and or massively rigid yes, you will need something suspended. Be aware though that anything lightweight will not give enormous amounts of isolation for low frequencies (bass) - so if you're wanting to watch Saving Private Ryan late at night or are into drum n' bass it might need to be fairly substantial.

[puntloos]

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

OK, from the list on the link, which size screen are you going for?

3m50 

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

And how far away will you be sitting?

4m

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

If it's biggish/you're close in and you want a realistic effect  you would be better going for speakers either side (+ centre speaker behind/underneath) - otherwise it may seem a tad odd to have the sound coming obviously from above.

 

Yep, see the image in my original post. Big speakers  - this: is pretty accurate, a 350m, subwoofers tucked behind speakers. (rears not pictured) - it's a full 7.2.4 atmos sy

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

And BTW, smallish speakers like those won't have a lot of bass response so you'll want a subwoofer tucked away somewhere.....

I have 2 13.5" 1000W subs. 

 

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

and maybe surround speakers behind?

Not pictured but they're there, it's a full 7.2.4 atmos system.

 

47 minutes ago, Reiver said:

Regarding insulation to above, unless you are going to go massively heavy/and or massively rigid yes, you will need something suspended. Be aware though that anything lightweight will not give enormous amounts of isolation for low frequencies (bass) - so if you're wanting to watch Saving Private Ryan late at night or are into drum n' bass it might need to be fairly substantial.

 

Anything specific you have in mind? How would you design the ceiling for this? Which layers, how thick?

 

[Reiver]

38 minutes ago, puntloos said:

 

I have 2 13.5" 1000W subs. 

OK, you might need something proper then!

 

 

38 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Anything specific you have in mind? How would you design the ceiling for this? Which layers, how thick?

 

There's a few different ways I've seen it done in studios, I'll do some basic sums and report back. Do you (or your SE) have any idea how much load the ceiling could carry?? And what are the other 2 walls that aren't ICF?

[ProDave]

Do you really need a screen?  I have only done one house with a cinema room and a projector, and they got good results just projecting onto a nice flat white painted wall.  It would seem to only be a requirement of you don't want a white wall?

 

TIP from that job.  TEST the 10 metre long hdmi cable that you bury up the wall and across the ceiling before the plasterboard goes on.  Better still install two. the time to find it is a dud cable is not when you first plug the projector in.  It was a mare to pull a new cable through.

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Reiver said:

OK, you might need something proper then!

 

 

There's a few different ways I've seen it done in studios, I'll do some basic sums and report back. Do you (or your SE) have any idea how much load the ceiling could carry?? And what are the other 2 walls that aren't ICF?

 

Thank you for helping! All I currently know is that the house is likely to be timber frame, and aiming close to (or hitting) passivhaus levels of insulation. Very open to suggestions when it comes to wall fillings. Ceiling can be made as strong as needed at this point, I imagine, as long as we design it 'now' rather than finding out after we're already building that it's too wimpy

[puntloos]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Do you really need a screen?  I have only done one house with a cinema room and a projector, and they got good results just projecting onto a nice flat white painted wall.  It would seem to only be a requirement of you don't want a white wall?

 

I've done that before too, a white wall is pretty nice. But we were thinking having a proper tv - for daytime viewing, and hey maybe wall lights etc. 

Also screens of course are better than just a wall, but one could argue the right paint will get it pretty close. It's worth considering.

 

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

TIP from that job.  TEST the 10 metre long hdmi cable that you bury up the wall and across the ceiling before the plasterboard goes on.  Better still install two. the time to find it is a dud cable is not when you first plug the projector in.  It was a mare to pull a new cable through.

 

Ha, I ran into the same trouble once. You're very right that hdmi cables can be low quality, not fun.

[Declan52]

You can get some pretty high quality short throw projectors now which will eliminate the big projector hanging from the roof plus a lot of the wiring considerations.

[Reiver]

13 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

You can get some pretty high quality short throw projectors now which will eliminate the big projector hanging from the roof plus a lot of the wiring considerations.

+1

The village film club here uses one - Optoma IIRC, and that' s with a mahussive screen something like 5 or 6m across.

[Thorfun]

53 minutes ago, puntloos said:

But we were thinking having a proper tv - for daytime viewing, and hey maybe wall lights etc. 

 

I had a motorised AT screen with a nice Plasma TV also on the wall. once the projector and screen were installed the TV never got turned on.....ever! we had blackout blinds in the room and even if we were watching TV/film during the day the projector and screen were used. 

 

once you get used to the big screen size the TV just doesn't cut it.

 

couple of photos to help visualise what I'm talking about.

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Thorfun

[Reiver]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

 

Thank you for helping! All I currently know is that the house is likely to be timber frame, and aiming close to (or hitting) passivhaus levels of insulation. Very open to suggestions when it comes to wall fillings. Ceiling can be made as strong as needed at this point, I imagine, as long as we design it 'now' rather than finding out after we're already building that it's too wimpy

Summat else I forgot to ask - what sort of floor are you planning? And what flavour of ICF?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Reiver

[puntloos]

@Thorfun heh, nice setup! And actually - in my previous home I had a 3m white wall and projector. We did still use the TV a lot, mainly during the day as 'wallpaper' though. (we like radio paradise android app, which gives peaceful pictures with peaceful music)

 

@Reiver: no strong preference for a floor yet! We are tempted to go for amtico, we kinda like the 'parquet-ish' look, UFH needs to breathe, and I think it could also be fairly good for audio? Or am I wrong? Happy to hear suggestions!

 

@Declan52  As you can see I kinda/mostly solved the whole projector issue by embedding it into my kitchen wall: (full floorplan here).

FWIW my current projector choice is the JVC NX5

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by puntloos

[Thorfun]

36 minutes ago, puntloos said:

@Thorfun heh, nice setup! And actually - in my previous home I had a 3m white wall and projector. We did still use the TV a lot, mainly during the day as 'wallpaper' though. (we like radio paradise android app, which gives peaceful pictures with peaceful music)

 

sadly it's long gone but once the new house is finished a new setup will be planned!

[puntloos]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

 

sadly it's long gone but once the new house is finished a new setup will be planned!

 

Well, do tell?  What did you design?

[Reiver]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

@

@Reiver: no strong preference for a floor yet! We are tempted to go for amtico, we kinda like the 'parquet-ish' look, UFH needs to breathe, and I think it could also be fairly good for audio? Or am I wrong? Happy to hear suggestions!

 

I was meaning more the structure - slab, beam/block or something else? As far as acoustics go carpet with a decent acoustic underlay is likely the best, helps kill early reflections off the floor, but I can see the problem with UFH and that!. You could always stick the carpet on the ceiling instead lol ?

[Thorfun]

51 minutes ago, puntloos said:

 

Well, do tell?  What did you design?

 

 

[puntloos]

4 minutes ago, Reiver said:

 

I was meaning more the structure - slab, beam/block or something else?

ah, no idea yet! I'm happy to be advised, but as it stands just whatever works? Perhaps the 'passivhausness' would dictate something.. 

 

4 minutes ago, Reiver said:

As far as acoustics go carpet with a decent acoustic underlay is likely the best, helps kill early reflections off the floor, but I can see the problem with UFH and that!. You could always stick the carpet on the ceiling instead lol ?

 

Right! Well I was thinking about that, while I'm sure my wife would want a white ceiling, nothing stopping me from putting some clever-but-white material there. That said, at some point audio-deadened rooms feel weird. Cool for perfect audio perhaps, but for day to day living your mind expects a certain level of echo? 

 

Looking forward to your proposed ceiling sandwich suggestion. First a layer of porous cheese like material, then a spread of PVC.. maybe some fiberglass for that crunchy bite..

[puntloos]

16 hours ago, Reiver said:

 

I was meaning more the structure - slab, beam/block or something else? As far as acoustics go carpet with a decent acoustic underlay is likely the best, helps kill early reflections off the floor, but I can see the problem with UFH and that!. You could always stick the carpet on the ceiling instead lol ?

 

@Reiver looking fwd to your comments. I did find this:

 

Seems like they're suspending a ceiling.. 

 

 

[AliG]

It is unlikely that you have the screen as high up as the ceiling, so the easiest way to hide the screen is to build a pelmet box below the ceiling and put it in there.That also stops it affecting your soundproofing in the ceiling. You could even box out a whole framed area all the way around the screen which would look nice.

 

I did look into this kind of thing in my last house and did not find a satisfactory solution at a reasonable price. Some companies make screens that drop through a door as they lower so you can put the whole thing up inside the ceiling, however from memory for this small benefit of tidiness they were considerably more expensive. I think simply putting the cassette inside the pelmet with an open slot is probably a lot more cost effective. In the end we just screwed it to the wall as in @Thorfun's picture.

 

We have a stepped ceiling in our cinema room which gives an easy way of hiding the ceiling speakers..Again you could then incorporate this into the pelmet that houses the screen and bring it all the way round to the projector.

 

One thing to consider is where will all your equipment be - Sky box, amp, PS4 etc. We have a whole rack in a cupboard at the back of the cinema room.

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

22 minutes ago, AliG said:

It is unlikely that you have the screen as high up as the ceiling, so the easiest way to hide the screen is to build a pelmet box below the ceiling and put it in there.That also stops it affecting your soundproofing in the ceiling. You could even box out a whole framed area all the way around the screen which would look nice.

 

 

my plan was to build a pelmet and put nice downlights in it but in the end I couldn't be bothered. in the end I'm glad I didn't as I would've had to take it down and make good when selling the house. but they do look good.

[puntloos]

24 minutes ago, AliG said:

It is unlikely that you have the screen as high up as the ceiling,

What do you mean? A 3.5m wide screen, would be 2m tall. The black drop (above the screen) is 30cm, so after that we'd be 40cm above the floor anyway...

 

24 minutes ago, AliG said:

so the easiest way to hide the screen is to build a pelmet box below the ceiling and put it in there.

Hm.. it would look ugly though. 

 

24 minutes ago, AliG said:

That also stops it affecting your soundproofing in the ceiling. You could even box out a whole framed area all the way around the screen which would look nice.

Do you have an image perhaps?

 

24 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

I did look into this kind of thing in my last house and did not find a satisfactory solution at a reasonable price. Some companies make screens that drop through a door as they lower so you can put the whole thing up inside the ceiling, however from memory for this small benefit of tidiness they were considerably more expensive. I think simply putting the cassette inside the pelmet with an open slot is probably a lot more cost effective. In the end we just screwed it to the wall as in @Thorfun's picture.

 

We have a stepped ceiling in our cinema room which gives an easy way of hiding the ceiling speakers..Again you could then incorporate this into the pelmet that houses the screen and bring it all the way round to the projector.

 

Eh, my cinema speakers have to be positioned fairly exaclty so I don't think I can escape the shell as depicted.

 

24 minutes ago, AliG said:

One thing to consider is where will all your equipment be - Sky box, amp, PS4 etc. We have a whole rack in a cupboard at the back of the cinema room.

 

Fair. I haven't really considered it too strongly. One fact is that if I manage to get a basement into 'affordable' range one tip of the basement directly borders the cinema room so it'd be an obvious location.

 

[AliG]

I was thinking of this kind of thing to hide the screen and possibly the ceiling speakers. We have something similar but our screen is fixed.

 

Actually our rear speakers are in the step, but the "above" Atmos speakers couldn't be that far to the edge so they are in the ceiling.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by AliG