Boundary 'issue'...

[Mulberry View]

We have about an acre of land and part of our boundary is shared with a local church. It just happens to be the only part of the boundary that is not properly fenced and it's true location is very unclear. Over the years it has become VERY overgrown, we have put a lot of work in to clear it.

 

I arranged a meeting with one of the official church bods, put forward the results of my research/opinion and he agreed to discuss the matter at the upcoming church meeting. This has now taken place and they have agreed to my proposed position. Given that this may (or may not) be the 'true' boundary, how do we go about getting this 'set in stone'?

 

I have an incomplete Topographical Survey in progress (halted while we clear certain parts of the land sufficiently). So I plan to get my surveyor back to complete his work and at the same time, get him to add some proper measurements, off-shooting into a sub plan of the church boundary, which I will submit to them and once they are happy, I'll arrange the fence. Although that part of the boundary is not my responsibility to fence, I'm going to do so as a token of appreciation to them for sorting it (it does appear to fall favourably for me).

 

So am I right in saying that once both parties have agreed to the position and we have a plan to document, do we simply ask Land Registry to update their records?

 

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, christianbeccy said:

do we simply ask Land Registry to update their records?

does that mean that land registry shows something different?

[nod]

We had an issue with a recently purchased plot and was told by the land registry that they rely on boundary’s drawn by estate agents 

Not what we wanted to hear 

[Mulberry View]

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

does that mean that land registry shows something different?

 

All I have is the Title Plan for both properties, neither of which offer anything other than a scale plan at best, but with no measurements, unless I've missed the obvious? One of the lengths of boundary is shown as having a very slight curve to it, I'm proposing straightening the line for ease of fencing, but also because I can't see how we'll ever place a curved boundary accurately.

 

Is there another method for defining boundaries?

[ProDave]

What do the on line land registry maps actually show?

 

When we bought our plot, it had not been registered on the electronic registry, all that existed was a crumpled bit of paper in the paper deeds showing a sketch and some dimensions.  It went through a Land Registry "plans report" which tied what was shown on the scrappy bit of paper to the land registry OS map, and existing fences on that map.  We ended up agreeing to purchase it accepting the boundaries "as fenced"

 

If you can find some boundariies marked, try zooming out on the map to see if you can find some identifiable objects to line them up with.

[Mulberry View]

19 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What do the on line land registry maps actually show?

 

When we bought our plot, it had not been registered on the electronic registry, all that existed was a crumpled bit of paper in the paper deeds showing a sketch and some dimensions.  It went through a Land Registry "plans report" which tied what was shown on the scrappy bit of paper to the land registry OS map, and existing fences on that map.  We ended up agreeing to purchase it accepting the boundaries "as fenced"

 

If you can find some boundariies marked, try zooming out on the map to see if you can find some identifiable objects to line them up with.

 

Where do I see this map? We bought the title plan and register a few months ago, but only resulted in a PDF showing the general boundary...

Edited June 18, 2020 by christianbeccy

[joe90]

Frankly if you and the church agree and you have a document showing their agreement who’s going to argue? After so many years it will not matter anyway. I sold a strip of land on a previous house and land registry records were completely wrong but they accepted our mutual agreement and altered their records ?.

[ProDave]

53 minutes ago, christianbeccy said:

 

Where do I see this map? We bought the title plan and register a few months ago, but only resulted in a PDF showing the general boundary...

Ah, the UK land registry does not seem as helpful as the Scottish one, and does not preview the map on the screen before you buy.

 

But I found this one https://www.ukplanningmaps.com/buy/

 

That lets you preview the land registry maps on screen before you buy so from that you might be able to identify your boundary and see if you can find any identifiable objects to align it with.

 

EDIT  I see that site only allows two free searches before it forces you to place an order so get it right first time and stay on the page until you have extracted all the information you need.

 

Or while away some time searching for other sources of maps, "planning maps" seems a good search term.

[Ferdinand]

There are two things here that should help.

 

The first is to document the agreement in both sets of deeds, and mark the boundary with "boundary features" (which are used by surveyors in determinating the boundary on the ground).In this case I would put in concreted in metal posts, which will last half a century, and get the church person to say yes to the placement. Probably using "estate fencing" (which is the metal stuff they put alongside roads in country estates) or concrete post and mesh fencing (which is the stuff you find inside hedges that was installed in the 1950s) would be appropriate. Or  fencing repair spurs and wooden posts. The important thing is to create a long term footprint on the ground to provide direction beyond the General Boundary Rule that will  still be there in 2075.

 

All these types of fencing are relatively cheap if bought carefully.

 

The other is to invoke the 'Measured Boundary Rule' procedure, where the Registry accept a mutually agreed boundary documented with absolute locations (ie GPS) by a mutually appointed (probably RICS) surveyor.

 

Since you like the outcome,  I suggest that you take both party's costs on the chin, which will let you sell it as generously providing a once-and-for-all clear solution. And hopefully build an excellent cooperative relationship.

 

If it is a CofE church, they are likely to have a local architect on retainer for Quinquiennial Reports, who may be a useful contact to know about, though Churchwardens are usually extraordinarily sensible if you don't brush their fur the wrong way (they have to manage Vicars... ).

 

Ferdinand

Edited June 18, 2020 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

Perhaps worth a read...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-title-plan/land-registry-plans-title-plan-practice-guide-40-supplement-5#updating-a-title-plan

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-title-plan/land-registry-plans-title-plan-practice-guide-40-supplement-5

 

I believe you need to generate two title plans based on the OS maps and apply to the LR have both title plans updated. The LR should create "vector title plans" if the drawings you send are consistent with the OS maps. If not they may need to do a survey.

[Conor]

6 hours ago, christianbeccy said:

 

.

 

Is there another method for defining boundaries?

 

Ordnance survey maps would be the first port of call and would often be used as definitive in a dispute. The boundary may have been a hedge or fence that's long since gone, but should be in an OS map. You can get your surveyor to peg out the missing boundary using OS digital maps.

[Triassic]

Send your site plan showing the agreed boundary to Land Registry to be appended to the tittle deeds.
 

Remember that lines on old maps, depending on the thickness of the pencil used to draw the line, can often be 500mm or wider if drawn to scale on the ground. 

[Mulberry View]

We're further forward with this now. My Topographical Surveyor has returned and completed his work.

 

As a result, we have an overlaid survey that shows what he measured along with OS and Land Registry plans. We're also fortunate enough to have the old 'sketched' plan of the original plot with measurements that we've attempted to plot against the others, but, as my surveyor pointed out, these plans were often quite inaccurate and measurements may well have been 'paced out' back then, possibly a tape measure at best. This, along with the fact that OS plans are notoriously inaccurate, hasn't provided a solid level of clarity.

 

In some parts of the survey it looks like we've gained a bit, but in others we've lost a bit, so it could very well be that the whole survey is actually slightly shifted and there is no way I can see that we can do better than we have. Well, without a wider survey to include data from surrounding properties too. There is certainly one point on the plan that clearly evidences an area where we have 'lost' a bit of land  that if we were to line up with OS would mean that the Church would lose their shed to us. My suggested position allows them to retain their shed and allow a bit for access behind it.

 

Fundamentally, I do feel confident that we're within a metre of the true boundary, wherever that might be. I've placed a string line in what I think is the most reasonable place and am meeting the Church bod to discuss this evening. A zoomed in snapshot from the overlaid plan doesn't really help our cause here because it looks 'out' compared to OS and doesn't show the whole picture, whereas the whole plot survey doesn't go into the level of detail needed. This is a small village Baptist Church by the way, not CofE.

 

If we both agree to the position, but it doesn't look quite right on the plans, will LR still update accordingly or will they contest it?

[joe90]

8 minutes ago, christianbeccy said:

If we both agree to the position, but it doesn't look quite right on the plans, will LR still update accordingly or will they contest it?

if both parties agree and you both have evidence (written) of that agreement why would land registry contest it?