Home automation server/system makes?

[gc100]

Hi,

 

I've got to quickly in the coming 2 weeks design a first pass of my whole house electrical setup. I want to build in as much future proofing and want some home automation. My basic idea is to run all cables back to the central location radially so that I can swap out the central home automation unit, or simple LED drivers, or simply wire the switch to a light..

 

However I have no idea about home automation makes and systems out there. A search on here brings up  loxone and  philips dynalight as possible control systems. Even though I can program I don't want to spend ages setting up or debugging etc and not interested in home rolled solutions (raspberry PI etc). I do however want the option to add that sort of thing later if I ever motivated enough. So a quick look on youtube and the loxone is the sort of setup I'm after I think given a reasonably amount of flexibility (but not the cheapest).

 

I'm wondering what other systems/makes are out there that won't lock you in to buying all their switches etc. I'm really after a system that can handle 'normal' leds, switches, sockets, etc.

 

Thanks!!!

[jack]

I know you've searched, but have you read the posts about Loxone on the site? Quite a few detailed threads about it in the past.

 

I installed it to run my lights, external blinds, heating, and various temperature monitoring jobs about 4 years ago. It's mostly been pretty good, although their business model seems to be moving more and more in the proprietary direction.  Lots of people on the Loxone Google group use Loxone as the centralised brain, and a combination of communication protocols like DMX, KNX and IP to control things far more cheaply or more flexibly than using all Loxone modules. If I were doing it again today, I might still use Loxone, but I'd probably buy less of their proprietary stuff.

 

They're definitely continuing to move away from a self-installers market, too. I believe the UK site is now closed to direct purchases, so if you wanted to do it yourself, you'd need to find a Loxone partner willing to retail the gear to you (which I understand several will do).

 

Timing-wise, it's a shame you aren't thinking about this a year or two from now, as there's a very interesting development coming down the pike from many of the biggest players in the space: https://www.connectedhomeip.com/

 

I know it's a bunch of companies about which we should be wary, but apparently it'll be security focused and open source. We'll see, I guess.

[MrMagic]

Thats a bit of a shame about Loxone as it's willingness to sell direct to public kept me interested in it.

 

You do need to have a bit of a think about what you are truly trying to achieve -

- home automation? or I just want the light to come on in the bathroom when I walk in ? = £15 PIR

- full piped music to every room with wall controls? or just a multiroom audio system? (Alexa, Google Home, Sonos)

- heating control to each radiator? or just a simple thermostat from the phone? (Honeywell Evohome, Nest, Tado)

 

....as I'm sure you've found there are 100s of options now for various parts to the HA environment but very few systems actually manage to pull it all together cleanly.

 

What I did in mine was go for open ecosystems (i.e. APIs, backed by longevity, open standards etc) and ended up with 'Home Assistant' running on a Raspberry Pi as 'the brain'.

 

For lights - fitted Z-wave throughout, dimmers, relays etc but would probably take a serious look at sonoff / Shelly / ESP based solutions. I still like ZWave but the comms between the units can sometimes be a bit slow whereas the sonoff devices I have don't miss a beat.

 

For sound - At the moment Google Homes, have had Alexa, Sonos in the past... would probably take another look at Sonos now there are some cheaper IKEA/Sonos speaker options

 

For Environmental - Fitted Honeywell Evohome, again, never skips a beat but would certainly investigate other options as it's costly.

 

Wiring - did exactly the same as your thinking, wired all switches and lights back to a central location so I can chop and change the brain as needed. Confused the hell out of the local sparky but makes reconfiguring things easy peasy. Put plenty of cat5e in (or cat6) in, still put a shotgun coax in to each TV point, wire it all to a central point. So far my only regret is not putting more cat5 in to the house, theres a few rooms where I've had to cable round a bit to reach a socket.

 

What happens if the brain dies? (Can I replace the proprietary system? Is the open source project still around? do they still make the hardware?)

What happens if I move house? (Can I convert to 'dumb'?)

Who would maintain the house/system going forward? etc (Simply fit and forget or required regular patching/software updates?)

 

HTH. MM.

[gc100]

Thanks both.  What I'm trying to achieve is things like the following:

 

• Master switch at front door to turn off; lights; non-essential sockets , blinds-  configurable is a must as this may change over time/time of year
• Mood settings for lights in rooms
• Remote switching of sockets/lights/doors
• Ability to integrate with my ASHP/MVHR which supports IFTTT - though I currently don't have a used case..
• Not bothered about sounds, as I find I just connect to the nearest bluetooth speaker and play via my phone in the real world.

So Loxone seems a no go then if they are no selling to the public (as thats a requirement for me). Any other central controllers out there?

Thanks

 

[Mike]

If I had the patience to learn the technology involved, I might well go with OpenHab, rather than tying myself to a proprietary system.

[jack]

On 25/04/2020 at 09:17, gc100 said:

• Master switch at front door to turn off; lights; non-essential sockets , blinds-  configurable is a must as this may change over time/time of year
• Mood settings for lights in rooms
• Remote switching of sockets/lights/doors
• Ability to integrate with my ASHP/MVHR which supports IFTTT - though I currently don't have a used case..
• Not bothered about sounds, as I find I just connect to the nearest bluetooth speaker and play via my phone in the real world.

 

To me, Loxone is probably still the sweet spot for this kind of integration. It handles things like blinds very well - lots of intelligent options, like auto-closing at dusk or opening at certain times of the morning, by day of the week if you require.

 

Re: integration with ASHP/MVHR, I'd originally planned to do this, but certainly on the MVHR I haven't found the need. I just leave it on one setting unless we have a lot of people over or we're going to cook something smelly, at which point I turn on the boost manually.

 

On 25/04/2020 at 09:17, gc100 said:

So Loxone seems a no go then if they are no selling to the public (as thats a requirement for me). Any other central controllers out there?

 

Loxone isn't selling direct to the public any more. You can still buy from their partners, and a number of them have indicated on the Loxone Google group I'm on that they're happy to sell to the public.

 

I'll say that whatever thoughts I have about Loxone's business choices, the support available from the community is excellent.

 

13 hours ago, Mike said:

If I had the patience to learn the technology involved, I might well go with OpenHab, rather than tying myself to a proprietary system.

 

I like the idea of that, but I'm less pleased about the idea that if I were hit by a truck tomorrow, no-one else would be able to maintain or modify the system. At least with Loxone, it's largely self-documenting by design, so worst case you could get in a Loxone specialist for maintenance etc. 

[Carrerahill]

22 minutes ago, jack said:

 

To me, Loxone is probably still the sweet spot for this kind of integration. It handles things like blinds very well - lots of intelligent options, like auto-closing at dusk or opening at certain times of the morning, by day of the week if you require.

 

Re: integration with ASHP/MVHR, I'd originally planned to do this, but certainly on the MVHR I haven't found the need. I just leave it on one setting unless we have a lot of people over or we're going to cook something smelly, at which point I turn on the boost manually.

 

 

Loxone isn't selling direct to the public any more. You can still buy from their partners, and a number of them have indicated on the Loxone Google group I'm on that they're happy to sell to the public.

 

I'll say that whatever thoughts I have about Loxone's business choices, the support available from the community is excellent.

 

 

I like the idea of that, but I'm less pleased about the idea that if I were hit by a truck tomorrow, no-one else would be able to maintain or modify the system. At least with Loxone, it's largely self-documenting by design, so worst case you could get in a Loxone specialist for maintenance etc. 

@jack would you be willing to give indicative costs of what bits cost?

 

I assume you invest in the central building control hub and then scale to suit.

 

Would you have an idea what a central hub plus some lighting, some blinds and some security modules would likely run?

 

I am thinking of this stuff just now and to be honest I think I can do what I need with things like Shelly and some clever linking between units and run the Shelly's using free home automation software on a basic server which I think could be done initially for a few £100.

 

 

 

 

[jack]

38 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

@jack would you be willing to give indicative costs of what bits cost?

 

I'm not sure what I paid, sorry - it was 5 years ago. I think it was of the order of £2.5-3k, which included the miniserver (the brains of the system), a DMX module, air extension module, two or three extension modules and a couple of nano air units (remote wireless relay/input modules). The miniserver includes a KNX bus, so you can run a limited version of a KNX network off it.

 

If I were doing it again, I'd probably use a lot more off-the-shelf DMX- or IP-controlled relays and input boards. The cost per input/output is an awful lot lower that way.

 

For me, the biggest advantage of Loxone is the object-based programming. It's just incredibly powerful and intuitive if you have a fairly logical mind. The closest thing I've seen to it is Node Red, which can be used with things like OpenHAB.

 

Despite the cost and some initial frustration with cheap dimmers I initially installed, I wouldn't be without it. The ability to double click the light switch beside my bed and have all the lights in the house turn off alone is virtually worth the price! That same double-click could be used to close a gates, turn off some outside lights, and turn on a perimeter alarm. I also have a switch at the bottom of the stairs which turns off all lights upstairs, and a similar switch on the landing that does similar for the downstairs lights. 

 

 

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, jack said:

 

I think it was of the order of £2.5-3k

 

 

You had me 'til that point!

 

Whilst price and value and two separate things that need weighing up against each other, for me that sort of money is too much to justify given it doesn't give a perfect solution in terms of avoidance of vendor lock-in, bespoke knowledge etc. Everyone is different but I would prefer to go down the open software route even if it means a steeper/longer curve. £2.5-3k would go a *long* way in terms of buying a variety of open products and open source software to drive them, and leave a fair bit for a holiday to recover from it all!

Edited April 29, 2020 by MJNewton

[jack]

37 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

You had me 'til that point!

 

Whilst price and value and two separate things that need weighing up against each other, for me that sort of money is too much to justify given it doesn't give a perfect solution in terms of avoidance of vendor lock-in, bespoke knowledge etc. Everyone is different but I would prefer to go down the open software route even if it means a steeper/longer curve. £2.5-3k would go a *long* way in terms of buying a variety of open products and open source software to drive them, and leave a fair bit for a holiday to recover from it all!

 

This could be done a lot more cheaply now. Potentially the only expensive/proprietary thing you'd need to buy is the Miniserver (the Go version @£300), then you'd run the rest of it with cheap DMX/IP modules.

[gc100]

1 hour ago, jack said:

 

This could be done a lot more cheaply now. Potentially the only expensive/proprietary thing you'd need to buy is the Miniserver (the Go version @£300), then you'd run the rest of it with cheap DMX/IP modules.

 

Hi Jack,

 

thanks for you input. Do you have any tutorials/links/videos that help explain all the components and options for a home automation system? I'm not really talking about controllers, more the nuts a bolts, like DMX/IP modules (whatever they are), relays (how are the controlled), dimmer interfaces, etc??

 

 

Many thanks

[jack]

57 minutes ago, gc100 said:

thanks for you input. Do you have any tutorials/links/videos that help explain all the components and options for a home automation system? I'm not really talking about controllers, more the nuts a bolts, like DMX/IP modules (whatever they are), relays (how are the controlled), dimmer interfaces, etc??

 

I'm not really aware of anything like that, sorry. There's no real easy way to learn all this stuff - an unfortunate side-effect of extreme flexibility is complexity, even though no individual element is particularly complex.

 

You could take a look at the Functional Categories section of the LoxWiki. There are at least some lists of interface options. 

 

The English language Loxone Google Group contains a huge amount of info, but unfortunately it's not organised. This thread discusses relay alternatives, as an example.

[jack]

2 hours ago, jack said:

This could be done a lot more cheaply now. Potentially the only expensive/proprietary thing you'd need to buy is the Miniserver (the Go version @£300), then you'd run the rest of it with cheap DMX/IP modules.

 

Actually, you'd need to add a DMX extension for a couple hundred quid too, although there might be some sort of third party converter you could use instead.

[Dan F]

Quote

The miniserver includes a KNX bus

The new version of the Loxone Miniserver no longer has KNX, but instead includes "Loxone Tree" with a proprietary daisy-chain.  KNX is now a pricey add-on extension which is consistent with their move towards being more proprietary and more partner-led.

 

Quote

I think it was of the order of £2.5-3k

Get a quote from a "Smart Homes" outfit and that'll seem cheap!  I got a couple of quotes out of interest, but it's crazy crazy money.. so plan to DIY it.  Also, even if I don't do everything initially, plan to at least put cables everywhere before plasterboard goes up.

 

Not decided what to do for lighting yet, but not the Loxone light fittings.  Potentially centralized 230v dimmers, but also looking at fittings with DALI drivers (which can be used via a Loxone extension).  Blinds will be integrated via relays so we can open/close these based on termperature to leverage solar gain but avoid overheating as @jack also does.

 

We'd like to integrate ASHP/MVHR if posisble, but these both use proprietary protocols I think, so it would be additional effort/cost that may not be justified.

 

This is a thread in the Loxone forum where I asked a number of questions regading DIY Loxone for self-build: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/loxone-english/m54bR_8aZvc/XoTIlb0LHQAJ which might be useful.

 

[gc100]

18 hours ago, Dan Feist said:

We'd like to integrate ASHP/MVHR if posisble, but these both use proprietary protocols I think, so it would be additional effort/cost that may not be justified.

 

My new NIBE is IFFFT compatible so some scope there.

[Adam2]

I know this thread has gone down a Loxone route but if the OP is interested, I've found my Z-Wave based Fibaro test setup (in current house while building new house) to be pretty good. Very robust, easy programmability with a graphical interface but if you want you can get into coding extra features, doesn't need a permanent web connection (if that is a concern). Z-wave isn't cheap as the radio transmitters are (for now) from a limited supply base but the brains is a few hundred and per light switch or per socket is a low incremental cost.

 

I've tested out basic programming using the graphical interface to have different lighting scenes running from multi-clicks on a switch, using a wall switch to turn on a plug socket, using a motion sensor to turn on a light or do something else based on temp or ambient light levels, have a door open activate a light etc etc - all pretty easy and has been very robust. The thing I like is that even if the server crashed (hasn't so far in >12m) the switches all still work. Always a risk of some form of lock-in but this is mitigated by using a std with many players making kit and you can always wire the switches back to a central (or a per floor etc) local point to simplify any future swap-out. The components create a mesh network so even though it is a wireless system that  model extends the reach

 

I'm no expert on this but happy to share my experience if helpful 

[gc100]

1 hour ago, Adam2 said:

I know this thread has gone down a Loxone route but if the OP is interested, I've found my Z-Wave based Fibaro test setup (in current house while building new house) to be pretty good. Very robust, easy programmability with a graphical interface but if you want you can get into coding extra features, doesn't need a permanent web connection (if that is a concern). Z-wave isn't cheap as the radio transmitters are (for now) from a limited supply base but the brains is a few hundred and per light switch or per socket is a low incremental cost.

 

I've tested out basic programming using the graphical interface to have different lighting scenes running from multi-clicks on a switch, using a wall switch to turn on a plug socket, using a motion sensor to turn on a light or do something else based on temp or ambient light levels, have a door open activate a light etc etc - all pretty easy and has been very robust. The thing I like is that even if the server crashed (hasn't so far in >12m) the switches all still work. Always a risk of some form of lock-in but this is mitigated by using a std with many players making kit and you can always wire the switches back to a central (or a per floor etc) local point to simplify any future swap-out. The components create a mesh network so even though it is a wireless system that  model extends the reach

 

I'm no expert on this but happy to share my experience if helpful 

 

I'm not set at all on going down the Loxone root TBH as I cannot buy direct. I really need to spend some time (which I don't have) looking at all possible systems. Correct me if I'm wrong but Z-Wave is all wireless ? I'm looking for a hardwired solution really.

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by gc100

[Thorfun]

I'm intending to make our new self-build a smart home. I am an IT professional working on Unix based operating systems and can program and write code, so I'm not at all fazed by having to do the work to get a system to work and integrated. if it was 15 years ago I would cobble together open source systems and equipment and spend hours upon hours getting it all sorted out (as I did when I built my first home theatre PC many moons ago). 

 

then I got older and found I didn't have the time to 'play' so much. and I got married and had kids and found that they just want stuff to work and don't want to have to wait while I figure out what the problem with something not working is. or have to click 15 buttons just to get the TV system to work.

 

As such, I've decided that I'm going for an installed and maintained system so the upkeep and programming is someone else's responsibility and we can just sit back and enjoy everything working.

 

I've looked at Loxone but I honestly just don't like their switches. and so I have pretty much decided that I will be going for a Control-4 system. I think their switches and controllers are much better than Loxone (in my opinion obviously) and seem to be a lot more configurable. it definitely won't be cheap but I'm hoping that I can save money elsewhere to allow me to get it installed. even if it's just controlling the lights and blinds/curtains to start with I (or rather the support company) can then add extra functionality like music/movies/heating/cctv etc at a later date. all I need to do is ensure that all the right cabling is installed. And from what I remember from the last time I got a quote (on a previous attempt to self-build (see my blog for details!)) the Control-4 lighting system is substantially cheaper than a Lutron system even though Control-4 can integrate with Lutron if required.

 

anyway, that's just my 2cents and wonder what harm could there be to get a local company in to quote. I'm sure they'd offer the service to just design the cabling with future installation in mind and then you can build it up piecemeal. obviously everyone's budget is different but you might be surprised by the costs and choose to save elsewhere to get it installed.

[Adam2]

1 hour ago, gc100 said:

Z-Wave is all wireless ?

Hi - yes it is. Which I think is a shame as I would happily plug a LAN cable into each component to control it. You can (as others on ere have shown) wire the switches etc all back to a central point, or to somewhere with best wifi if that helps. I'm testing it in a house with concrete floors and no issue and instant response from the  front door sensor triggering a light to come on in the 1st floor. I've found it fun to setup and experiment with and was also originally looking at a wired system (C4 as in the above post) was of interest until I found thta I could buy this and have fun with it so easily in our current house ?

[jack]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I've looked at Loxone but I honestly just don't like their switches. and so I have pretty much decided that I will be going for a Control-4 system. I think their switches and controllers are much better than Loxone (in my opinion obviously) and seem to be a lot more configurable. 

 

I assume you mean the touch switches? I don't have any of those - very expensive for what they do imo. All mine are simple retractive switches - two-way rockers for the blinds and single push for the lights and other controls.

 

The flexibility is all in the programming. For example, clicking the same switch in the living room can be set up to give you a different scene depending on whether it's before or after dusk.

 

I could program a light switch so that holding it down for some (programmable) length of time triggered basically anything - open a garage, turn on MVHR boost - basically anything connected to the system.

 

I've set things up so you don't need to muck about with an app or mess with the system unless you decide to change or add something).

 

I definitely don't want to interact with "smart" switches or, worse, touch screens just to turn a light on or off. 

[Thorfun]

48 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I assume you mean the touch switches? I don't have any of those - very expensive for what they do imo. All mine are simple retractive switches - two-way rockers for the blinds and single push for the lights and other controls.

 

The flexibility is all in the programming. For example, clicking the same switch in the living room can be set up to give you a different scene depending on whether it's before or after dusk.

 

I could program a light switch so that holding it down for some (programmable) length of time triggered basically anything - open a garage, turn on MVHR boost - basically anything connected to the system.

 

I've set things up so you don't need to muck about with an app or mess with the system unless you decide to change or add something).

 

I definitely don't want to interact with "smart" switches or, worse, touch screens just to turn a light on or off. 

yep, I mean the smart switches they do. The cool smart switch I like with Loxone is the one that can go under/in a worktop in the kitchen so you can use it with wet hands. That’s pretty cool! 
 

I like the multiple function switches from C-4:

 

https://www.control4.com/help/c4/user/userguide/content/topics/lighting/switches-keypads.htm

 

very simple for anyone to use (no double/triple tapping or combo presses etc) and each button can be etched according to its function. Again, not cheap but definitely wife friendly!

 

i will keep looking in to Loxone though and every self-build show i go to I stop by a stand and have a play. 

[jack]

10 hours ago, Thorfun said:

yep, I mean the smart switches they do. The cool smart switch I like with Loxone is the one that can go under/in a worktop in the kitchen so you can use it with wet hands. That’s pretty cool! 

 

They weren't available when did my installation, but yes, they're definitely cool!

 

10 hours ago, Thorfun said:

I like the multiple function switches from C-4:

 

https://www.control4.com/help/c4/user/userguide/content/topics/lighting/switches-keypads.htm

 

very simple for anyone to use (no double/triple tapping or combo presses etc) and each button can be etched according to its function. Again, not cheap but definitely wife friendly!

 

Loxone can theoretically do all of that. The only thing that's missing (unless things have changed since I last looked) is the availability of decent quality retractive switch grids like those you showed for Control4. I couldn't find anything even vaguely like those with just plain retractive switches.

 

A lot of people use KNX switches paired with Loxone, as that opens up a lot of new (and expensive!) possibilities for switches.

 

Incidentally, my parents in law have Control4. They pay an annual maintenance fee to the installer, which pays for updates and any tweaks they need. I personally don't fancy spending money year after year on this sort of thing.

[Thorfun]

9 minutes ago, jack said:

 

They weren't available when did my installation, but yes, they're definitely cool!

 

 

Loxone can theoretically do all of that. The only thing that's missing (unless things have changed since I last looked) is the availability of decent quality retractive switch grids like those you showed for Control4. I couldn't find anything even vaguely like those with just plain retractive switches.

 

A lot of people use KNX switches paired with Loxone, as that opens up a lot of new (and expensive!) possibilities for switches.

 

Incidentally, my parents in law have Control4. They pay an annual maintenance fee to the installer, which pays for updates and any tweaks they need. I personally don't fancy spending money year after year on this sort of thing.

 

I will look in to it all some more, including the KNX switches. I understand what you mean about the annual maintenance fee and also C-4 has a subscription based model for certain features which is a bit galling. but, when it comes down to making a decision I will take all the information I have and the costs involved (including ongoing costs) and make a decision.

[jack]

13 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

... C-4 has a subscription based model for certain features which is a bit galling. but, when it comes down to making a decision I will take all the information I have and the costs involved (including ongoing costs) and make a decision.

 

I'm actually quite surprised Loxone hasn't done something similar. The kit isn't that cheap (albeit it's cheaper than a lot of other options), but then they continue to provide app and software updates forever at no cost. I'd have thought even something like £50-100 a year wouldn't be unreasonable for most people, and would make them a lot of additional cash over the life of the product.

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I'm actually quite surprised Loxone hasn't done something similar. The kit isn't that cheap (albeit it's cheaper than a lot of other options), but then they continue to provide app and software updates forever at no cost. I'd have thought even something like £50-100 a year wouldn't be unreasonable for most people, and would make them a lot of additional cash over the life of the product.

as far as I know you don't pay for C4 software upgrades but you do have to pay for the installer to do the work! so, no free lunch at all.

also, I think the annual maintenance fee is a dealer option as I'm sure the ones I've spoken to have said that you don't need an annual maintenance plan but can just pay as and when updates/changes are required.

 

again, more research required. ?