"Air Source Pump.. C. heating"

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps-

 

apparantly I'm eligeable for this system to be installed, foc via a full grant, in my stone cottage + 70's cavity wall additions (2 beds above, kitchen on side).

 

I'd never heard of it until the call an hr ago, so doing some research. Apparantly in order to have it installed, the Co said I 1st need the cavities filled (also via a full grant/ they would do this 1st.. I think).

 

Can anyone suggest any reason why my having these (cavity fill, ASHP system installed) in my particular house isn't a win-win? I bet there are caveats & I shouldn't just jump in (I mean surely I can't be onto such a winner too: all done foc?!).

 

I'm having their surveyor chap here tmrw to assess xyz.. be good to swat up beforehand.

 

Appreciate some basics- zoot.

[ProDave]

What is the construction?  i.e. it is usually a very bad move to fill the cavity between a timber frame and a masonry exterior wall, though plenty of firms will suggest it.  Okay if it's masonry / cavity / masonry.

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

What is the construction?  i.e. it is usually a very bad move to fill the cavity between a timber frame and a masonry exterior wall, though plenty of firms will suggest it.  Okay if it's masonry / cavity / masonry.

 

Hi ProDave, did read your thread before posting mine..

 

good Q. Ok yes the new ongoing extention.. is timber frame. But I didn''t include this in the description to the Co/ left this off.

 

So excluding this (which I wouldn't need insulating as as Ive just put 140mm kingspan in/ the full whack poss): I have 4x walls C1830 miner's cottage -flippin cold 2ft stone walls- & cannot be adjusted (IE inside PIR lining is a no-no lookswise.. & I mentioned this).

 

Then added to this simple 'shell': an 80's 1-story kitchen extention, plus, ontop of the 4 original walls: another 80's addition of 2 bedrooms. BOTH are 2 courses brick with no (or 1cm in fact) PIR inside the cavity: mentioned this & they said 'as good as none/ we'll call it no insulation in' (which is great news).

[ProDave]

Whether the ASHP ends up cheaper to run than what you have now, depends on what your present heating system is.  I also assume it will be radiators not UFH.  I would want to know if they were planning to use the existing radiators or over sized low temperature radiators.

 

An ASHP will never be as efficient running radiators as it will be running low temperature UFH.

 

Have they provided a quote with any meaningful technical data?

[zoothorn]

@ProDave

 

I assume rads too (I have no rads now: just a logstove, 2 leccy wall heaters.. for whole house).

 

The efficiency isn't paramount, to me.. the cavity insulation (both brick additions, are as stupidly cold as the main C1830 stone walled room) plus having -anything- in terms of C.heating is: I'd even say a luxury compared to what I'm used to here!

 

Its a Q of if there are any hidden pitfalls I'm totally naiive to, really is the nub of the thread (& secondly, if the idea for my house.. might seem a decent one). One minus-point to the system afaict, is it won't go hot-hot.. but if its 'medium' & I benefit from both this in conjunction with a cavity wall-fill, then it might just be spot-on. Surely it'll add some value to property as now having "Central Heating"-?

 

 

[A_L]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

One minus-point to the system afaict, is it won't go hot-hot

 

Is this being done under ECO? Large CO₂  savings compared to deemed electric heating could fully fund the installation.  The system should be installed according to MCS specifications and should be capable of normal demand temperatures. The system may have to be operated for 14-16hrs per day to achieve this. If the cottage is large you may need a 3-phase heat pump, generally if output of heat pump is 14kW or more. The radiators will be sized to compensate for the lower flow temperatures

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, A_L said:

 

Is this being done under ECO? Large CO₂  savings compared to deemed electric heating could fully fund the installation.  The system should be installed according to MCS specifications and should be capable of normal demand temperatures. The system may have to be operated for 14-16hrs per day to achieve this. If the cottage is large you may need a 3-phase heat pump, generally if output of heat pump is 14kW or more. The radiators will be sized to compensate for the lower flow temperatures

 

Hi A-L

 

Yes, I think exactly so (eco). Onwards from your question.. I  can't understand a thing, I do apologise!

 

Apart from the cootage size: no its small, simply a 30msq main room (within the 4 old walls).. with addition above this (2 small beds) & 1-floor kitchen & WC tagged onto its side.

[Mike]

10 hours ago, zoothorn said:

apparantly I'm eligeable for this system to be installed, foc via a full grant, in my stone cottage + 70's cavity wall additions (2 beds above, kitchen on side).

 

I'd never heard of it until the call an hr ago, so doing some research

I may be out of touch with the latest developments, but I'm not aware of any full grants for ASHP heating. Under what scheme are they claiming that you're eligible?

 

As ProDave says, heat pumps perform best when they are supplying water at lower temperatures - which makes then a particularly good match for underfloor heating (compared to radiators). That certainly doesn't mean it's not viable, but does mean that you need a proper assessment, from a company you trust, to understand what you're getting. Don't be bounced into signing up with the first company that happens to have contacted you.

[newhome]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

may be out of touch with the latest developments, but I'm not aware of any full grants for ASHP heating. Under what scheme are they claiming that you're eligible?

I think that there are companies around that will fit an ASHP free of charge but you have to sign the RHI payment over to them. Also not a good plan if you intend to move within 7 years. They generally require the prospective client to pay a small fee, something like a couple of hundred pounds a year I believe as a maintenance charge. 
 

So I’m guessing one of those companies. The company would need checking out with great diligence IMO. 
 

There were plenty of rent a roof companies installing PV and getting the FIT in the past. This is an extension of that. 
 

 

 

[Hobbiniho]

2 hours ago, newhome said:

I think that there are companies around that will fit an ASHP free of charge but you have to sign the RHI payment over to them

 

Hence why they said there is no insulation, even when there is, this increases the heat demand therefor increasing the amount of RHI payment they would get. @zoothorn have you uses @Jeremy Harris spreadsheet to calculate your heat demand as this will give you a good indication what size ASHP you need .

 

An ASHP will work with radiators, they just need to be sized correctly, i have a combination of normal panel rads and low temperature rads (fan convectors), i have panasonic aquarea air rads to go with my panasonic ASHP but there are others such as the dimplex smartrad, mitsubishi ilife2 slim. my house is 80m2 and 1870's concrete, although i do have a small amount of insulation, and my heating system works perfectly fine

[zoothorn]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

I may be out of touch with the latest developments, but I'm not aware of any full grants for ASHP heating. Under what scheme are they claiming that you're eligible?

 

As ProDave says, heat pumps perform best when they are supplying water at lower temperatures - which makes then a particularly good match for underfloor heating (compared to radiators). That certainly doesn't mean it's not viable, but does mean that you need a proper assessment, from a company you trust, to understand what you're getting. Don't be bounced into signing up with the first company that happens to have contacted you.

 

Hi Mike, thanks for the post.

 

Apparantly out here westest/ wettest wales, there seems to be a big chunk of cash designated to a Co. called C.E.S, by govt, who seem to have the contract. They had a few postcodes on their books to allocate grants to, but now stretched to include whole of my area too.. so they said.. so 'luckily I'm now in catchment area'.

 

I mean on paper it sounds like too-good-to-be-true door-salesman talk, but for the fact that a whole C.heating system -possibly- can be installed via a full govt. grant. Anyway we'll get a better picture after the surveyor visit this AM, I'm waiting here for him.

 

So it seems I don't have the choice of Companies to choose from do I? if afaict, if this Co's been given the contract by govt.

 

I'll get back on here with details of the system proposed/ offered by the surveyor (or call "CES" & get this more specific info) & post back.

 

Great help chaps thank you- zoot.

[newhome]

This company @zoothorn? 
 

http://www.ces-limited.com/products/

 

 

[Mike]

Thanks - not a scheme I'd come across, so interesting to know about it.

 

I found a Government PDF which indicates that 'low income, vulnerable and fuel poor households' are eligible, and that the cash is from the energy companies, rather than the Government. Some more at https://www.gov.uk/energy-company-obligation

 

From elsewhere it seems like any Green Deal Certified Installer is able to sign up to install under the 'ECO3' scheme, though no idea if all have. CES are listed.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Mike

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, newhome said:

This company @zoothorn? 
 

http://www.ces-limited.com/products/

 

 

 

Yes that's it. surveyor from the Co came, logo on/ all pro as you'd want: the pump would be a "Vailant" unit (~same size as my twin reverb).

 

Cavity fill would be eps (small balls of I think) alone, no bonding agent: more up to date than the horror-story stuff my builder talks of needing extracting from what I can gather.

[zoothorn]

@Mike actually you see I do fall into this 'poor wretch' catagory.. low income, old cottage, no C.heating, fuel-poor. And as for my clothes jesusH.. for eg my y-fronts: its only the stubborn understains that are holding them together.

[newhome]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

@Mike actually you see I do fall into this 'poor wretch' catagory.. low income, old cottage, no C.heating, fuel-poor. And as for my clothes jesusH.. for eg my y-fronts: its only the stubborn understains that are holding them together.

 

Sounds like it could be a good thing for you then. Let us know what the deal is (and terms and conditions) when you get something formal through. 
 

 

[Mike]

17 minutes ago, newhome said:

Let us know what the deal is (and terms and conditions) when you get something formal through

I'd be interested to know what they propse too

 

4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

for eg my y-fronts: its only the stubborn understains that are holding them together.

From your avatar it looks like they've disintegrated entirely...

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'd be interested to know what they propse too

 

From your avatar it looks like they've disintegrated entirely...

 

I think its fairly swiftly onto the next step.. an engineer chap re. logistics of doing it all.. maybe visiting next week.

 

(☺️)

[zoothorn]

@ProDave or anyone else who knows of these systems.. are the units noisy at all? I forgot to ask the chap.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@ProDave or anyone else who knows of these systems.. are the units noisy at all? I forgot to ask the chap.

About as noisy as an oil fired boiler burner.  the difference is the noise is outside so won't bother you. Most people are happy to have an oil boiler roaring away inside the house.

[zoothorn]

So effectively in the summer, sitting outside (my gdn fairly close to the lump).. its not gonna be doing any noise, at all?

 

Its just the noise outside being of concern to being in the garden, being a very rural & peaceful spot I'm lucky to have.

[ProDave]

It will make noise outside when heating the hot water, but you should be able to time that when you are least likely to be outside.

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

It will make noise outside when heating the hot water, but you should be able to time that when you are least likely to be outside.

 

Ok thanks for that- I should be able to cope I think. So do they feed standard water-rads, with the usual (a design disaster IMO) trv's ?

[zoothorn]

Update: just had a week of mayhem & all installed. Some teething probs, an error code glitch, but hot water running well. All room double rads in, bathroom tiny so only a towel rail possible.. so I have a nice chrome one in. Excellent work, considerate pipe positioning, highly pro service by a young team going hammer & tongs. Old tank & all old pipework removed for me too. Ive just a full heat test of rads.. & the error glitch done, this week.

 

My impressions are this: bigass heavy outside unit is very quiet (& makes a nice air-con cold fan.. why this isn't utilised, is weird). The bigass pipes that run from it tho > into house > into boiler (an extra wall-mounted unit to the cylinder approx fender twin reverb size) makes a vibrating hummm when pump's on: annoyingly audible inside: mostly in bed2 but also stairwell & 1/2 of downstairs main room.. so my bedroom2 I'd think hard to sleep in: a problem needs addressing with sound dampening. Urgh. Big rads: the system not designed for high rad temps, so bigger rads needed. German Vaillant hardware good.

 

Very complicated system: an outside digi-thermometer guages/ monitors temp & adjust system accordingly. Urgh. And ontop of this, a dread-inducing digital controller-readout thing I'm meant to use to set abc, is so complicated (& german-translated-english hard to understand alot of manual) that I doubt I'll be able to use it to put a few rads on for the typical 2-hour early AM & mid PM slots!! (& seems alot to go wrong too).

 

Alot of work for me to do: to reconfig airing cupboard woodwork & remake new door (cylinder sticks out), alot of pipework boxing to do, alot of big 10x5" holes in pB & woodwork to fill (& mouse-proof) made by new piping.. & significant sound-proofing work to do around boiler/ big inlet pipes from outside unit. Some carpet damage, & lawn damage.

 

zoot.

[dpmiller]

Are there not flexi-hoses connecting the outside unit to it's pipes?