UFH

[Taff]

Morning,

 

Is this an issue? We are constructing with sips and have requested that we have UFH installed on both ground and upstairs floors, we were initially going to have the torfloor on first floor which I believe is 25mm, it’s the pre grooved stuff laid directly on the joists. However, sips company weren’t aware of this, probably my fault! Sips want to install their flooring as part of the structure which makes it quite robust. Now that I have seen it I would like them to keep this.

 

so now back to the UFH people, I spoke with them briefly yesterday and now cannot use the torfloor. I guess it has something to do with the floor height/weight etc. Sips will install 22mm decking and I believe the torfloor is about 25mm. Then floor coverings probably tiles. So I guess this is just far to thick or heavy.

 

anyone with knowledge re UFH upstairs? Using the torfloor would that just be to much? How have others installed theirs? 

 

Headache now ?

[Judy C]

How well insulated is your house?  We are using larger radiators (to suit the ASHP)  upstairs on the basis that we won't need a lot of heat, and u/floor is not that effective in timber floors with a carpet on top.

 

Another option is to use skirting heating?

 

https://www.discreteheat.com/thermaskirt/products-and-information/overview.aspx

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

A case of the tail wagging the dog here.

 

You need to tell the SIPP company the floor make up that YOU want including your UFH and THEY should design it for that, including any extra allowance for extra dead loading.

 

i.e. they should NOT fit the floor boards at frame erection stage, or if they must fit something, then a cheap layer of thin OSB onto which you can put your UFH panels then your chosen finished floor.

 

They also need to make allowances for the floor make up to add extra height if needed.

[nod]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

A case of the tail wagging the dog here.

 

You need to tell the SIPP company the floor make up that YOU want including your UFH and THEY should design it for that, including any extra allowance for extra dead loading.

 

i.e. they should NOT fit the floor boards at frame erection stage, or if they must fit something, then a cheap layer of thin OSB onto which you can put your UFH panels then your chosen finished floor.

 

They also need to make allowances for the floor make up to add extra height if needed.

I agree. Some of these companies are a bit handy at telling you what you can and can’t have 

[PeterW]

So the SIP company are correct - the floor is integral and they will need their floor panels to provide structural rigidity and also meet their SEng sign off. Using someone else’s panels will not be an option as their calculations will need to be based on agreed products.  
 

Ask them for the agreed static and dynamic loads they have used on the first floor construction and then work our what you can add. You may be better using a low profile PIR  foam type product as the heat layer then add on the finished floors above. Some will be tile, some board for carpets etc. 

[Declan52]

2 hours ago, Judy C said:

How well insulated is your house?  We are using larger radiators (to suit the ASHP)  upstairs on the basis that we won't need a lot of heat, and u/floor is not that effective in timber floors with a carpet on top.

 

Another option is to use skirting heating?

 

https://www.discreteheat.com/thermaskirt/products-and-information/overview.aspx

 

 

 

 

I have carpet on 4 of my downstairs rooms and it works fine. You can't just use ordinary underlay though. It has to be specific for ufh and have a low tog rating, like your quilt, so it allows the heat to come through.

[ProDave]

23 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So the SIP company are correct - the floor is integral and they will need their floor panels to provide structural rigidity and also meet their SEng sign off. Using someone else’s panels will not be an option as their calculations will need to be based on agreed products.  
 

 

Why is that the case with SIPS when it is not the case with Timber frame?

 

I personally would not accept that.  If they are saying there must be something as the frame does not have enough racking strength with just bare joists, then would not a sheet of 11mm OSB do that, onto which the OP could put his floor make up?

 

Any resolution has to be resolved and agreed with the SIPS company and their engineer,.

[PeterW]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Why is that the case with SIPS when it is not the case with Timber frame?

 

I personally would not accept that.  If they are saying there must be something as the frame does not have enough racking strength with just bare joists, then would not a sheet of 11mm OSB do that, onto which the OP could put his floor make up?

 

Any resolution has to be resolved and agreed with the SIPS company and their engineer,.

Because the floor design will be based on a composite of the joists and the decking, not just the joists. It is the same with any structural design, and both SIP and TF will have similar requirement for a trapezoidal tacking capabilty from the floor and roof structures. 

[Jeremy Harris]

On 04/03/2020 at 13:22, ProDave said:

Why is that the case with SIPS when it is not the case with Timber frame?

 

I personally would not accept that.  If they are saying there must be something as the frame does not have enough racking strength with just bare joists, then would not a sheet of 11mm OSB do that, onto which the OP could put his floor make up?

 

Any resolution has to be resolved and agreed with the SIPS company and their engineer,.

 

Our timber frame also had to have the first floor fitted as the house was put together.  The flooring forms a part of the structure, and the first floor was boarded out before the first floor walls were stood up.  I believe this is fairly common with some forms of modular timber frame construction.

 

It is worth looking at whether heating is needed upstairs, though.  I opted to not fit any heating in the bedrooms, just towel rails in the bathrooms.  I did wire in switched FCUs so that we could fit small electric panel heaters if we found that we needed heat.  In practice the bedrooms stay a very pleasant degree or two cooler than the living areas most of the time, but can get a bit warm in summer, so I ended up installing air conditioning to cool things down.  I'm really glad I didn't go to all the hassle and expense of installing UFH upstairs, if I had then I'd be still kicking myself for the wasted cost.

[Bitpipe]

We have a suspended timber deck ground floor (over basement). 22mm OSB glued & screwed on pozi joists and installed as part of the MBC package.

 

Before decking, I* laid alu spreader plates and the 16mm UFH loops. They decked over this (leaving out a strip of OSB where the loops had to cross over the joist).

 

On top of that went 12mm ply and 9mm ply, both glued and tacked.

 

On top of that went a 6mm rubber crumb matt and then 6mm of resin topcoat (should have been 2mm but failed to cure properly twice so was redone).

 

So it's almost 50mm of solid substrate between the UFH and floor surface, still heats up just fine when needed.

 

Like Jeremy, I have nothing else heat wise in upstairs bedrooms but do have electric UFH mats under the tiles in the bathrooms plus wet towel rads.

 

Rooms are perfectly comfortable, even in depths of winter and worst case, 5 mins with a Dyson hot / cold fan will get an unused room up to comfort temp.

 

*I started laying the spreader plates as soon as the joists were in but MBC politely took over and put everything else in perfectly in a fraction of the time I would have taken. UFH pipe too.

[nod]

We have 156m2 of UFH down 

18 months on we still haven’t used the bedroom radiators 

We heat the downstairs upto 18 The heat rises and has nowhere to go. 

Your money  is better spent on insulation 

[Taff]

7 hours ago, Judy C said:

How well insulated is your house?  We are using larger radiators (to suit the ASHP)  upstairs on the basis that we won't need a lot of heat, and u/floor is not that effective in timber floors with a carpet on top.

 

Another option is to use skirting heating?

 

https://www.discreteheat.com/thermaskirt/products-and-information/overview.aspx

 

 

 

 

I’m hoping it will be well insulated it’s a field at the minute 

! along with the sips, we will install UFH both up and down powered by ASHP also include MVHR. It’ll be tiled in the sitting room which is upstairs and probably carpets for the bedrooms. The main bedroom is downstairs inc the kitchen etc will be tiled. Do you have a sips build or similar? 

[Taff]

6 hours ago, PeterW said:

So the SIP company are correct - the floor is integral and they will need their floor panels to provide structural rigidity and also meet their SEng sign off. Using someone else’s panels will not be an option as their calculations will need to be based on agreed products.  
 

Ask them for the agreed static and dynamic loads they have used on the first floor construction and then work our what you can add. You may be better using a low profile PIR  foam type product as the heat layer then add on the finished floors above. Some will be tile, some board for carpets etc. 

I have spoken with the UFH installers and they have now suggested 15mm low profile board, plastic type where the tubing slots into, this will then be covered with 6mm ply. The sips company, I agree are right and having visited to touch and feel the product, the whole system aids it’s strength and integrity. I’m just awaiting sips to come back and say all is fine ? 

[Taff]

5 hours ago, Declan52 said:

I have carpet on 4 of my downstairs rooms and it works fine. You can't just use ordinary underlay though. It has to be specific for ufh and have a low tog rating, like your quilt, so it allows the heat to come through.

Thanks for that info ?

[Taff]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

Why is that the case with SIPS when it is not the case with Timber frame?

 

I personally would not accept that.  If they are saying there must be something as the frame does not have enough racking strength with just bare joists, then would not a sheet of 11mm OSB do that, onto which the OP could put his floor make up?

 

Any resolution has to be resolved and agreed with the SIPS company and their engineer,.

I’ll await their response and let you know 

[AdamSee]

I used the Omnie torfloor in my renovation project. It is made from standard 22mm chipboard T&G floor panels which are routed out to accept a 12mm pipe. This does weaken the structure, so to bring it back up to the normal strength you need to glue and screw a minimum 6mm (5.5) ply sheet over the top of it. Works pretty well with 9mm ply to. I believe that with the 6mm ply it will span 600mm joists but cant remember without rereading the tech sheet which is available from there website. 

 

I cant imagine why a floor which is going to be 6 or 9mm thicker than a standard floor would cause many problems. 

 

FYI, to tile it to Omnie standard, you need to use Tile masters decoupling mat and S2 ultra flex rapid set adhesive. Personally I would never use it again. Its the equivalent of trying to spread chewing gum. 

[Taff]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

Because the floor design will be based on a composite of the joists and the decking, not just the joists. It is the same with any structural design, and both SIP and TF will have similar requirement for a trapezoidal tacking capabilty from the floor and roof structures. 

?

[Taff]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

 

Our timber frame also had to have the first floor fitted as the house was put together.  The flooring forms a part of the structure, and the first floor was boarded out before the first floor walls were stood up.  I believe this is fairly common with some forms of modular timber frame construction.

 

It is worth looking at whether heating is needed upstairs, though.  I opted to not fit any heating in the bedrooms, just towel rails in the bathrooms.  I did wire in switched FCUs so that we could fit small electric panel heaters if we found that we needed heat.  In practice the bedrooms stay a very pleasant degree or two cooler than the living areas most of the time, but can get a bit warm in summer, so I ended up installer air conditioning to cool things down.  I'm really glad I didn't go to all the hassle and expense of installing UFH upstairs, if I had then I'd be still kicking myself for the wasted cost.

We decided on both floors having the UFH as my wife is the coldest person in the world I also thought that we may be able to drop the temperature slightly in the summer months by activating the cooling side of the UFH, or should I say UFC! We’ve lived in a draughty old house for a long time so never really experienced UFH yet.

[Taff]

5 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

We have a suspended timber deck ground floor (over basement). 22mm OSB glued & screwed on pozi joists and installed as part of the MBC package.

 

Before decking, I* laid alu spreader plates and the 16mm UFH loops. They decked over this (leaving out a strip of OSB where the loops had to cross over the joist).

 

On top of that went 12mm ply and 9mm ply, both glued and tacked.

 

On top of that went a 6mm rubber crumb matt and then 6mm of resin topcoat (should have been 2mm but failed to cure properly twice so was redone).

 

So it's almost 50mm of solid substrate between the UFH and floor surface, still heats up just fine when needed.

 

Like Jeremy, I have nothing else heat wise in upstairs bedrooms but do have electric UFH mats under the tiles in the bathrooms plus wet towel rads.

 

Rooms are perfectly comfortable, even in depths of winter and worst case, 5 mins with a Dyson hot / cold fan will get an unused room up to comfort temp.

 

*I started laying the spreader plates as soon as the joists were in but MBC politely took over and put everything else in perfectly in a fraction of the time I would have taken. UFH pipe too.

Crikey, You could form part of the m6 with that base!! I was just worried that we would need more heat so was scared not to have the work done, sounds like I am wasting some money but to avoid being slapped from the boss I played safe ?

[Taff]

3 hours ago, nod said:

We have 156m2 of UFH down 

18 months on we still haven’t used the bedroom radiators 

We heat the downstairs upto 18 The heat rises and has nowhere to go 

Your money  is better sent on insulation 

I don’t think we have any more room for insulation! ?

[Taff]

11 minutes ago, AdamSee said:

I used the Omnie torfloor in my renovation project. It is made from standard 22mm chipboard T&G floor panels which are routed out to accept a 12mm pipe. This does weaken the structure, so to bring it back up to the normal strength you need to glue and screw a minimum 6mm (5.5) ply sheet over the top of it. Works pretty well with 9mm ply to. I believe that with the 6mm ply it will span 600mm joists but cant remember without rereading the tech sheet which is available from there website. 

 

I cant imagine why a floor which is going to be 6 or 9mm thicker than a standard floor would cause many problems. 

 

FYI, to tile it to Omnie standard, you need to use Tile masters decoupling mat and S2 ultra flex rapid set adhesive. Personally I would never use it again. Its the equivalent of trying to spread chewing gum. 

That was the exact floor that I mentioned to the sips company that we were planning to install, they were concerned about the additional weight, well that’s what I thought he said, the UFH company wanted to get rid of the sips flooring and use the torfloor, so it all went to pot after that so now I’m trying to be the go between ?

[Declan52]

20 minutes ago, Taff said:

Thanks for that info ?

If you do intend to use carpet then make sure you see the certificate that comes with the underlay that proves it has a low tog and don't just trust the salesman.

[Taff]

6 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

If you do intend to use carpet then make sure you see the certificate that comes with the underlay that proves it has a low tog and don't just trust the salesman.

This site is awesome it’s just full of stuff you wouldn’t even think of, perfect I will and it’s written down in the floor folder ?

[Gone West]

13 hours ago, Taff said:

my wife is the coldest person in the world

Think I'll have to disagree with you on that one.

[Taff]

20 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Think I'll have to disagree with you on that one.

Ok she has hard slap!